The Sky Is Falling!
Published on 26. Nov, 2008 ... written by EVE Player, Tags: Articles
by EVE Player …
(mac – ro).Computer Science. An instruction that represents a sequence of instructions in abbreviated form.
Not only am I LIKE the Cheshire cat, I’m also just like you! ~The Evil Macro’er
Please let me introduce myself. I am an American, in my early thirties and I have two kids, two cats, and a neurotic dog with a Quaker Parrot buddy. I’ve played some MMOs for 4 years at a time. I like Front Lines: Fuel of War and ketchup goes on just about everything but a good steak. I am a degreed professional but not a programmer, I served in the military and I knew Obama would be the winner. I am also an amateur macro’er. Yes, I have macro’ed the holy crap out of certain video games. I’ve been doing it for more than 8 years now so tell me; at what point did you notice your Eve gaming experience going down the tubes because of me? I’ll bet your downward spiral really has nothing to do with me macro’ing, now does it?
In the Beginning
I think I started macro’ing during my Ultima Online days. I remember trying out the UO Extreme program and being floored with what others in the game had been using for a very long time. It was at that point, in seeing the advantage gained, that my “follow the rules” style of playing video games began to melt. For weeks I researched the who, the what and the how. It was all very above my head. The final straw was when I became aware that a particular guild was made up of nothing but people who hacked, and hacked quite well. At that point, I knew I was out-gunned.
So, now that you think you know what this will be about, let me tell you what this article is not going to be about. It’s not going to tell you how to macro, nor is it going to justify doing so. It will simply tell you what some developers think about it, how I came about doing it, what is involved and to what extent it actually affects the game from a veteran’s point of view.
What THEY think
You would be surprised about the attitude MMO game developers take when it comes to people figuring out how to macro their game. With some MMOs sucking up tens of millions of dollars in development and taking 5 years to get to the point where they can even think about launching you’d think that they were all gung-ho about squashing “dem ‘lil macroing varmints”. While I cannot speak for all of them, nor have I developed one myself and can say that I have had very long discussions with four game developers. Three of them were game masters in game (as well as programmers of the game) and the last one was the CEO of an MMO. Believe me, you know this CEO guy and have most likely played at least one of his video games in your lifetime. Since I do not have his permission, I’ll call him Mr. D.
Mr. D and I met because of my wife’s (who is just as avid about playing MMOs as I am) great skill in networking. She’s a chick playing an MMO, so the advantage is hers from the get-go, right? Well, she played a particular MMO for a few years, one that was small and not well known and eventually she started talking to the guy that happened to run the MMO. A few months later and Mr. D is over at our house spending the weekend just to hang out. It was a pleasure for me to show him the macro I had written over a nine month long period to specifically logic out all combat while I was asleep. He thought it was good, but otherwise did not care at all. I was puzzled to say the least. Mr. D’s attitude on it was something two fold. His first response was, “Why do you even want to play the game like that?”. The second point was, as long as you are not interfering with other players, “I don’t care.”.
To the first point, I play the game using macros because it is a fantastic challenge. I hit a Zen like state when I program them. There is a positive and tangible reward for doing it as well. My response to the second point is the real heart of the matter. I like to think of it as “flying under the radar”. If I can do it and not hurt anyone then it is game on for macro’ing! And yes, I realize I am increasing my signature radius by posting this article.
So, if a guy that earns his sizable paycheck does not care that I macro his livelihood to death while his End User License Agreement clearly states that macro’ing will get you banned, then why should I care, too? The truth of the matter is that macro’ing is a game style. If you are having trouble understanding that, think of low-sec pirates in Eve. They kill for little to no reason and sometimes only for your grief mail. It’s just a game style to them and they have all kinds of justifications for doing so. Now, they don’t get banned sure, but you have to admit, it is simply an attitude they carry forth into the game. I am no different in how I design the macro and implement it into the game. In all likelihood I’m probably macro’ing right now!
What THEY say
So, you are thinking by now, “Pirates don’t mess up my game!”. They are not breaking the EULA either! While the first point is somewhat arguable (another article in and of itself) the second is not. They certainly are not breaking the EULA. I’m such a rebel. For the last few months or so I have been cautiously inquiring to others about why they are so zealous about ganking those they perceive as being macro’ers. I have yet to get a thoughtful and even agreeable answer, let alone an analysis on the impact of macro’ers, specifically macro miners in the game of Eve Online. Most that post about macro miners on Eve-Online are simply upset and wish to vent. Some want a reason to play the righteous EULA avenger. Still, others just want to eat your lunch and leave you a processed lunch sample for your trouble. So, from their perspective I will list some points that I commonly read about on the Eve-Online forums. I’ll try to be thorough and forgive me if I miss some points as this is not easy:
- Macro’ing is against the EULA! – I don’t care. I don’t care in the way that you don’t care that you have not started a fair fight in Eve in a very long time.
- You sell your ISK for real life money, not fair! – No, I certainly do not. I spent a long time making and learning how to make this macro and I am going to use the proceeds to enjoy the game. True, some could do this, but I do not. It also benefits me to not get caught by selling ISK.
- You are ruining my game, stop it! - If I don’t sell the ISK I make but instead use it to purchase items, buy skill books or produce them then I’m helping the economy, not hurting./li>
- It’s just not fair! – No one is stopping you from taking the path that I did. I’ve never taken a programming course, no one taught me any of this and the macro’ing “playing field” is an even one.
- You can mine all day, I can’t, no fair! – I love this one. The amount of time any given player can put into playing Eve has never (NEVER) been fair. It is a fact that some people fall asleep playing Eve, drool on keyboard and everything. Did you ever truly believe that all players are equal in the amount of time they have, what about skill? Do you really think you could ever compete with that proverbial fearless 12 year old that never has homework?? If I can mine 23/7 that is only because everyone else has the same amount of time per day to play.
- You hurt the in game economy! – Are you kidding me? Logic this one out a little. Ever wonder why mineral prices shoot up after an expansion? Some of that upswing is because it takes awhile for the macro miners to adjust their code! We defiantly have an effect on the price you pay for minerals and that is, we keep it down. More plainly put: The less minerals on the market, the more you pay.
In Defense of CCP
In all fairness perhaps we don’t really have an impact on the game at all, without access to the data mining capabilities that all MMOs have I could never know for sure. But I bet I know someone that does know for sure and that is CCP. They have almost 400 employees. These guys/gals can write custom code like StacklessIO and have people so dedicated to game mechanics that at least one of them was hospitalized after role playing an RPG for 48 hours straight. So you know they know what they are doing. I’d bet my last donut that they have analyzed it up and down and few times sideways to boot. It is a common consensus that petitions in game about players that are “obviously” macro’ing never receive a reply. In defense of CCP I would like to use the list form to cover the points, so bear with me again:
- There are 240,000+ players on a single “shard” and only what, a dozen game masters? I don’t know the real number of game masters, but it could not possibly be enough to cover all bases.
- The actual number of people engaging in macro mining is simply not large enough, or the impact is not large enough for CCP to continuously ferret them out.
- A good macro is very hard to spot, like the Cheshire cat in Alice and Wonderland it is there, but you can only see it if you want to.
- There is nothing a macro does that a human at the controls could not do, except for maybe the drooling on the keyboard mentioned earlier.
- To ensure that there are no macro miners in the game would require massive amounts of time and energy, so much so that it would likely bankrupt the company if they tried to hire people to specifically hunt them. It’s an enormous task.
Does CCP hate macro miners? Probably not, these people understand games and have an understanding that you cannot stop people from macro’ing. There is a lot of programming talent out there and as long as I am not hurting you, then really, why should they care? Do they love us? You know, Eve has a very funny standpoint towards the things that make Eve so “compelling” and “dangerous” (take corp theft for example) that I’d say outlawing macro’ing but turning a blind eye to it is just another way to draw in players to them. On the other hand, perhaps it is not a blind eye, but more like an arms race.
The Arms Race
Some players contend that CCP could do something about these macros be it a small code change, some sort of game mechanic or even a “rat on your buddy” type of program. They certainly could change the code, even do what UO did and secretly put in “anti-macro’ing” code. It is a waste of time and resources though. You see, if they build a better mouse trap, I am going to build a better mouse. I’m one guy with some time on his hands and nothing to lose but my account, who do you think will adapt first? And for those that want an in game system for reporting suspected macro’ers, what stops someone from writing a macro that will make multiple false suspected macro’er reports all night long? Trust me, we could go round and round with this. My point is that as soon as they adapt, macro writers adapt.
Coming from the fingertips of a macro’er, I would say for sure that they do need to keep it in check. Macros can be abused when you have in game items being exchanged for real life money. You really are hurting the company in some way when you do that. That said, I have never done such a thing nor do I plan to. So now you know how I came to macro’ing and know a little bit on how I feel about it. Now let us get to the meat. How did you do it?
Putting Some Meat on Them Bones
Writing a macro to run any video game first requires that you have a very good understanding of that video game. The next thing one requires is a good understanding of the programming language you will be using. Some macros are a custom language and have no use outside of the specific environment they are created with; it is basically a program you can write within another program.
Other macros are the kind that takes a college degree in order to write. Those are the best ones and far out of my reach. Macros of that caliber are the kind that wraps itself around the executable program and puts out feelers for information that a macro which only takes over your keyboard and mouse can dream of. In the interest of flying under the radar I’m not going to name programs but…cough cough… Glider for WoW…cough cough…might slip past my lips as an example.
So if you have the video game mechanics down, and you are not daunted about learning a new language then the last thing you need is a “dedicated” computer or two or three or 36. For the level of sophistication that I can do my macro takes over the computer 100%. I have to have a specific bit setting, resolution and a plethora of in game settings JUST RIGHT in order for the macro to work. If it is off, it breaks, when it is on, I am off. I can Pause it (sometimes) to check email, watch South Park or perhaps some late night movie watching but that’s it.
From here on out, when I say macro I will be referring to the one I have written.
Keep in mind that macros are not magical. My macro cannot read words on a screen. My macro cannot intercept, decode, decipher nor even invite to tea the packets that are sent out and received by the Eve servers. That’s the secret though. That is flying under the radar. I’m not hacking anything. My macro can only do what my eyes and my hands can do. Its brain is only as good as the cross between my programming skills, understanding of the game and the amount of garbage I can put into it.
It may not be able to read, but it sure can see color. In fact, it can differentiate more than a million different shades and I can be very, very specific about the shade I am looking for. For instance, you gankers out there will love this one; I can program my macro to check my shield level every .83 seconds. If it is white then do nothing, but should my macro see red instead, then execute a specific procedure to dock me at the station! That would take about 400 lines of code to do properly. I put that one in 4 months ago. It gets better. Say that I know that Goonswarm is ganking high-sec miners, all I do is set them to -10 standing and the Eve game puts a red box by their character. Now, as long as I can make that red box for any given character show up in local and I know where to look for it all I need to know then is the exact shade of color to scan for. An asshat enters the system with a red box and BAAAM my macro warps me to the station and stays until the hostile is gone. Other things that macros can do:
- Automatically re-log you if you lose connection. Again, color detection in the right places is the key.
- Know when to target another asteroid.
- Vary mining patterns to look like a bored player looking for new scenery.
- Vary asteroid selection and even imperfectly mine to fool others.
- Say HOWDY PARTNER YEEEE HAWWW! in Local when someone enters or chats in local
In short, a well written macro can go quite far in terms of stealthing itself. It is very difficult to know for sure that the person in your system is a macro miner or not. I am defiantly not using the most sophisticated programming techniques out there and I can fool most people. You can even say that this contributes to CCP’s attitude on macro miners as its just plain hard to tell some macros apart from some players.
Here is a more complete list of what mine can do (again, not the best out there):
- Mines 23/7
- Auto logs for you, chooses a character and starts mining.
- EDITED OUT
- Determines where you are within a system and returns you to a starting point (handy for loss of connection)
- Can be used out of a regular Starbase or a POS
- Stacks your ore after dumping it
- Dynamic warp detection (will work on any ship with no adjustment to code)
- Runs in 1024×768 mode, 16 bit only
- Gives you a choice of specific ore types to mine and will ignore all others
- Mines 3 asteroids at a time
- Detects the amount of active lasers you have, how many asteroids you have locked and retargets and fires lasers as needed
- Detects your ship’s health and warps you to the station in the event of you going below a specified shield level
- Detects known tagged hostiles as they enter the system and immediately returns you to a safe spot and indefinitely waits until all hostiles have left the system
- EDITED OUT
- Aggressive mining logic, very efficient.
- Can handle drones (took out but still have code due to rats consistently destroying them)
- Can set where in a corporate hanger to put the mined ore
- EDITED OUT
- Uses a lot of default settings in Eve for better reliability
- Can be modified to do jet-can mining (no hauler code though)
- Keeps track of loading times, station exit times and warping times (aids in debugging)
- Large amount of timestamps for aggressive debugging as well as limited self correcting code
- Configurable to any ship
- EDITED OUT
- Automatically pauses when Eve is not the main window, upon Resume it brings Eve back up and continues as if nothing happened (very very useful tool)
- Can handle 3 systems with 18 bookmarks/system (total of 54 bookmarks)
- EDITED OUT
- Can detect an empty field and remove the bookmark for a more aggressive mining capability
- Works in any system despite background color
- Now with limited skill changing ability!
- feeling quite naked now so I will wrap this up.
Summary
I can honestly say that I would not play Eve should the macro’ing be shut down as I simply do not have the time to earn the ISK to do the things I want to do in Eve. I have always been of the opinion that if a game has macro’ers in it, then there is a game mechanic that needs to be improved. I played WoW for over a year and never even thought about macro’ing because it was a blast to be at the controls all the time.
I do try my best to not piss off others and fly under the radar with this macro. I don’t sell anything for real life money and I certainly don’t make the kind of ISK that others not “in the know” say macro’ers do. I’d just prefer to play the game like this because I not only like the challenge of playing Eve itself but I also enjoy the challenge of building a program to macro it. And should you have a hankering to try it out, keep in mind that it took me two months to get a basic macro working and the next 10+ months of tweaking and updating to get all the bells and whistles it has now. It is very custom, computer specific and not a “plug and play” type of thing.
One last thing, since I took the time to educate you, in exchange, I’d like to be left the hell alone, Eve is my therapy and unlike my last therapist, Eve did not take away all of my superpowers. So life would suck without it. I play my way, you play yours.
PS: I welcome only intelligent and non flaming replies, should you post otherwise you can bet I will ignore it completely and your point will be lost on me. Please put some time and logic into your responses, thanks!
Editorial Information: The eMail address supplied at the bottom of this post does not represent the original eMail address of ‘EVE Player’, the author of this article. This is to preserve his anonymity in this particular case. Thank you for your understanding.
Related articles & threads:
- Confessions of an EVE Online macro’er @ Massively.com
- EVE Online Forum Thread 1
- EVE Online Forum Thread 2
98 Responses to “The Sky Is Falling!”
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rantuket: great write up! looking forward to the remainin...
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Smak: Hey kEwL dOOd, thanks so much for commenting on...
Ecaf
02. Dec, 2008
No I think you miss the point – to apply ethics as you please in some areas of life (in general) but not others is the same as not having any.
If you want to escape the rules of life and be the bad-boy then become a pirate, which is within the confines of the game as it is set out for all to enjoy.
Beowolf Schaefer
02. Dec, 2008
Flavan your analogy is completely false. If the OP somehow made his skills train faster that would be something outside the game mechanics. All the OP is doing is mining which is well within game mechanics. What he is doing is simply using a different method to use a game mechanic not to subvert it.
Breaking the rules and breaking game mechanics are not really the same thing in my opinion. You can make the call on if you like or dislike the both of them.
Edcognito
02. Dec, 2008
“Daddy? What are you doing?”
“Just macro’ing some ore honey”
“But Daddy? Isn’t that illegal?”
“Yes dear, but it doesn’t hurt anyone, so its ok…”
“Daddy? What are you doing?”
“Speeding a little bit…”
“But Daddy? Isn’t that illegal?”
“Yes dear, but it doesn’t hurt… >!CRASH!<
Yeah – Its ethics and honor. Pure and simple.
“Honor is that which you do when no-one is looking.”
To play the game you have to agree to the EULA. If you agree to abide by the EULA to play the game, and you take actions that break the EULA, you have committed an unethical act. If your children see you committing an unethical act (and they do… or will when they get old enough) – they will be more likely to commit unethical acts.
Mr. 30 yr. old American? You have no honor and you have despicable ethics.
I don’t care who “in the industry” likes or approves or doesn’t even care about your actions. Your just rationalizing like the little boy who steals a candy bar and gets caught…
Rationalization is for children.
Its against the EULA.
You do it.
You have committed an unethical act.
You rationalize it.
You are wrong.
Ed
P.S. – I have two children as well – I make DAM sure they understand ethics. Wish your dad had done the same.
Ed
GrandHighMarshall
02. Dec, 2008
It’s just a game!
You have the choice to play in your style
You have the choice to ignore the actions of others
You have the choice to play or not to play
You have the choice to petition if you feel you have been done hard by
You do not have the choice of imposing your moral standards on others.
Beowolf Schaefer
03. Dec, 2008
Agreed GrandHigh
cincannatus
03. Dec, 2008
pretty shameful that an army vet doesn’t know what honour is. They, for the most part are the ones who understand the true meaning of honour, dignity and courage. Shame that message didnt get through to some soldiers throughout their entire career. though i must admit, in defence of the forces, this is an unusual case
Edcognito
03. Dec, 2008
“its just a game” – WTF does that mean? -LOL-
“Honor is that which we do when . . .”
Really amazed that this even needs discussion…
Actually the whole “You don’t have the choice of imposing your moral standards on others” is really not true. Society does impose moral standards on everyone, every day…
Do you agree to the EULA? If you agree to the EULA to play, and violate the EULA, you are dishonorable.
PERIOD.
GrandHighMarshall
03. Dec, 2008
I see a lot of people in here that see the world in black and white, no shades of grey for you lot.
You lot would have made great inquisitors or even great witch hunters in the day.
What a sad world you must live in where rules are so endoctrinated and vehemently enforced.
I will play a GAME in any bloody way I wish. Regardless of your moral or ethical standards and regardless of the rules of the developer.
In doing so if my actions result in me being banned then so be it!
I go into this with my eyes wide open and fully aware of my actions and the consequences of them. My problem, not yours.
Honestly folks, you need to take a VERY long and HARD look at yourselves and ask yourself…why do I even give a rats arse what these macro miners are doing?
Serisously, it’s just a game! These guys are not poisoning your drinking water, not causing the current world financial crisis, not abducting your children etc…
Why the emotion?
It’s just a game!
Play it and enjoy it.
If you’re not enjoying don’t get your knickers in a knot, go play something else. After all, aren’t you playing to enjoy yourself?
So what if someone else is breaking the rules…and getting away with it? (even if only temporary). Who appointed you the moral and ethics police? What gives you the right?
Some people in this world will never move off the high horse, will never see reason, will never compromise, will never find common ground, will always look for the hard road, will always antagonise, will always argue. School bullies, dictators, politicians, religous zealouts and nutters pretty much some them up.
This is a great game folks.
It allows people to do pretty much whatever they like.
There are consequences for actions, designed and enforced by the developers. They set and enforce the rules…not you.
All this crap talk about honesty, integrity blah blah blah…please.
Who here does not have an .mp3, .avi, .wmv, .mov, .wma, .iso etc file on there computer that they haven’t paid for? And before you put your hand up claim to be that miracle man…I don’t care. You get my point. You lot (EVE Player haters) are so selective about honour and integrity when it suits you.
Don’t get me wrong, I highly value these traits in the REAL world. Unlike some…I’m able to differentiate/compartmentalise the real world from a relaxing fun activity like online gaming.
I’m not asking for people to see the grey (there’s more to the world than black and white
)
I’m not asking for people to agree with me
I’m not asking for people to disect my every word and provide a verbose rebuttal
I’m not asking for people to accept my moral or ethical stance
I’m not asking people to accept my liberalist views to online gaming
What I would like from you all is to see, as suggested by the OP… some healthy discussion and debate about the topic of macro mining and it’s impact on the game and the response to date from CCP.
NOT a personal attack on the OP. This topic has degraded to personal attacks on character. You have attacked his family, his career, his integrity, his honesty, his morals, his ethics. Frankly you lot need to take a good long hard look in the mirror. Shame on you.
My suggestions for moving forward:
1. Stay on topic.
2. Keep the personal character attacks out of it.
3. If have nothing good to say…is it at least constructive to the argument?
PEACE
Ecaf
03. Dec, 2008
OK, I publically promise to myself that this is THE LAST post I will make on this article!
In direct response to GrandHighMarshall:
I understand all of what you say and agree with some of it except the following:
Yes the world is not black and white, there are huge grey areas, probably more grey than B&W in fact.
As an example I know a man, through another man, who worked hard and had a decent job that paid well enough to support his extended family. Through no fault of his own this job ended and the best job he could get after did not pay enough to support his family and he resorted to drug smuggling – needless to say he was caught and imprisoned. Here is an ethical grey area with for and counter arguments galore.
But as you said yourself, this is a game. A game can and, in my honest opinion, should be one place where we can be black and white. If not here then where?
But my over-riding argument, at least at the beginning before it turned into a free-for-all mud-slinging contest which yes I joined in on (which I freely and humbly apologise for), is that I find it utterless pointless to play a game in a way which benefits you by cheating – and by cheating I mean play in a way outside of the rules as they are set out by the game designers. Of course if everyone sitting round the scrabble board says OK we can all have a dictionary that we can look at whenever we want then fine but in an MMO game there can never be this common consensus.
Yes there should not have been attacks on the OPs family but having freely admitted to cheating and posting that confession here for all to see and read, then attacks on “his integrity, his honesty, his morals, his ethics” were invited and indeed cannot be questioned in light of his own admission.
GrandHighMarshall
03. Dec, 2008
Thanks for a level headed response.
*thumbs-up*
Yes it’s unfortunate that life deals us some pretty shitty hands from time to time. And often it’s a case of there but for the grace of God…
PEACE
NotImportant
03. Dec, 2008
On the subject: “Does macroing hurt other players?”
There are several reasons why macroing DO hurt other players, i don’t know if you left it out because you are ashamed or because you are trying to justify it to yourself. Just to list a few ways other players are hurt by macroers:
A. Macro miners
You say macro miners keep the mineral prices DOWN so everything remains cheap for everyone. What you left out was the MINING profession, it is other miners who you are hurting because they are forced to sell their hard earned minerals for LOWER prices.
Of course you can then say: “But they also buy stuff for lower prices”
Which would be absolutely true unless it was for the fact that not everything in eve is driven by the market, you have NPC markets for Blueprint Originals, Pos Fuel, Skill Books and LP-store Items.
On top of that you have Insurance, Market Tax, Creating a corporation/Alliance and Broker fees.
For a miner who want to advance, they have to compete with your 23/7 hour macro determining the prices.
I have an answer to that as well: “It isn’t that bad, there aren’t enough macro miners in eve to affect the profession of mining that much.”
But that is not the point, the point is… No matter by how little or how much you affect others, you still do. If by 1% that means one out of every hundred million ISK is LOST for the hard working miners.
And i think, that the average industrialist mines roughly 2 hours a day per week. Lets say there are 5,000 industrialists in game mining that 2 hours a day on average. It only takes 500 macro miners to mine the same amount of ore as it does for the 5,000 non macro miners over the week.
So in-fact, the macro miners most likely stand for 50% of all ore being mined. Couple this with the fact that macro miners only “effort” is having to wait for the ore to roll in while a hard working miner has to WORK for it. The effort value for a macro miner is way less. That is hurting the game experience for the hard working miners, constantly reminded that someone … somewhere is running a macro, doing what they do 10 times “better”.
And finally, a Macro Miner can empty 10 timer more belts per day than the average non macro miner. Thus there will be way less profitable belts left for them.
B. Macro mission runners.
This isn’t part of your topic, but i bring it up because it is equally hurting to other players and does nullify the “benifits” as you propose them from macro miners.
A macro mission runner has the same type of excuse that macro miners have: “My massive amount of ISK means i can buy more expensive stuff in larger quantities, thus keeping the market moving so you can sell more stuff faster. That leads to HIGHER prices so you can sell for more profit.”
However, that is where a macro mission runner differentiates from a macro miner. They generate ISK and in some cases mission LOOT (If they have a salvager macro as well), while the miner generates ORE.
The more ISK in rotation, the less value ISK will have. The macro mission runner can spend more ISK on the market, thus prices go UP when they do. Higher prices = More ISK needed for the same item. Thus, ISK has less value.
So the question one might ask: “Does macro mission runners actually buy that much off the markets?”
That is indeed a complicated question and the answer is not really a direct one. Macro mission runners are on a ISK “fast-track”, to them ISK has less value because they didn’t spend countless hours AT their computer killing mission NPC’s. They are prepared to and have the ISK to spend on expensive items such as blueprint originals, pos fuel and insurances. They can also afford to buy the expensive market items such as marauders, high end implants etc etc etc etc. They also use their gained LP-points to buy LP-Store items and resell them for LESS isk than they are worth. (And now I feel that I am repeating myself in more ways than one)
The point is, they can acquire MORE items for LESS effort. They make certain market item prices go UP, and keep other market prices DOWN! (LP-store items)
This affects non macro mission runners in a bad way because their ISK is worth LESS when it comes to acquiring big expensive toys. And their LP-Points are also worth LESS because the market is flooded with LP-Store items.
NO, i do not have any PROOF of the numbers i presented. The message is not in the numbers but rather in. It does affect regular players, how much or how little effect it has i do not know. But it does affect us all.
Another question you might ask: “If macro miners bring prices DOWN and macro mission runners bring them up. The balance is perfect, isn’t it?”
Yes, that is true. But remember that macroers (Like i said, i have no PROOF) do what you do 10 times more effective. And quite easily could stand for 50% of all isk and ore generated in the game at any time. By now you should realize that 50% of your effort is nullified by the macroers.
Or as another explaination, another viewpoint. If macroers stand for 50% of all ISK and ORE injected into the market stream and they do things ten times better than you could ever bare with…
It essentially leads to, the few macro runners in game. Get to do all the things you ever want to do and they get to do it ten times earlier than you ever could.
So another question arises: “How can macro runners get to do things i wanted to do ‘ten times’ eariler? They still have to train skills, wont they?”
Absolutely true, any character has to train skills to fly the nice ships etc etc. But EvE Online is 5 years old++, there are plenty of old players willing to sell their old alts. Macro runners have the ISK to buy these chars, and they are more than willing to do so. (I assume)
—
Final words…
Macro runners of any flavor DO affect regular players in a bad way. Not only by saturating the markets with THEIR goods and ISK but by mentally affecting the hard working players. Macro runners can be AFK and do other fun things and return to the game with 10 times more resources to play with. They are the “elite” in the regards that they can throw their ISK and ORE around far easier because they didn’t spend 23 hours a day gathering it. The only downside they face is that the macro computer isn’t accessible for the entire day. A price they are ready to pay, most likely because they. Like all of us have other things to do than stare into a monitor for hours on end.
So brag all you want Mr. Eve Player, but no matter how much you try to justify your macro program. You are the only one profiting from it! And your program is saturating the market with YOUR “for free” goods. This hurts other miners. And leaves all other professions without profit. All while you live the good life. Maybe all eve players should start running macros? After all, you can ten-fold your profits!?! That sounds like a deal for me. Until you realize, we are all paying CCP for a game that requires us to run a macro for 80% of the day and then play with resources without any value to us.
“OOPS, there goes my carrier… Oh well, there is 500 on sale next door for 700 million isk.”
…
“But wait, i can’t undock because there are 50 carriers, 20 motherships and 10 titans camping this station and i have a pod!”
Perl
03. Dec, 2008
>It’s just a game!
>Play it and enjoy it.
>If you’re not enjoying don’t get your knickers in a knot,
>go play something else. After all, aren’t you playing to
>enjoy yourself?
Should I leave the game because some cheaters are making their game into it? Of course I’ll do! It’s CCP’s call here, to decide which future they do want.
In order to have fun and a healthy playerbase you need what you reject, the players that act by the rules, so that you will overdo them by means that possibly will end in an account ban. Again, it’s not illegal in this case (mostly against the eula, which means a possible ban), but cheating when playing with other people is laaaaame. And to agree with being cheating is even more lame, this is why Eve growing curve has stopped (past events with GMs, plus Eve is gaining reputation as a ‘bot and ebayer game’).
If the macroers and ebayers become a majority (aren’t they already?), we’ll see how much fun are you having when only people of your kind are around.
Again, you can see great games that have ended into dust because of this bot problem. Eve is on the road…
GrandHighMarshall
03. Dec, 2008
Wow, great responses!
And the comment from NotImportant about macro mission runners got me thinking about other potential macro alts.
)
Surely the 1 or 2 gankers that jump you within a very short time of passing through a remote low-sec gate haven’t been sitting there for the last 8hrs waiting for you to come through?
I suspect this macro bot business is more likely to be the answer…I could be just wrong (and unlucky
This game is my first venture away from FPS in a number of years and it makes for a great change of atmosphere and pace.
In the FPS online gaming realm the world is full of cheats, hacks, exploits etc. It’s a part of the daily scenery.
We play these games knowing full well that someone out there is breaking the rules and has an unfair advantage of the rest. Thankfully the game developers would patch and cull until the next wave of hacks etc caught up.
My clan of players were passionate about finding these dodgy players in game and hunting them down ruthlessly until they got the message and left.
That’s how we dealt with it.
Now if the game developer here is not assisting with the elemination of players that are exploiting game mechanics etc then we as a player base have only one way to express our dissatisfaction….the same way the FPS guys do! I’ve left several well known FPS games due to teh excessive amounts of kacking and exploits.
If you guys are deadly serious about trying to wipe this out of the game on your own…you’re going to need a HQ, serious coordination, massive fire power, huge fleets, great intel, 100 billion in ISK etc
The idea being that you effectively create a vigilante fleet to systematically hunt the ISK farmers at the source. System by system this could take some time…but just might be possible.
I feel my D&D Paladin of Tyr character trying surface….
This really is a big ask on the player base to take upon them this level of responsibility to ensure the game they love can remain a safe and happy place for all to coexist in.
But…if CCP are not able or willing…
Personally I’m a fan of this method…don’t get mad…get even approach. Like I said earlier, it worked for us in FPS (to a degree).
There’s nothing better than beating an exploiter/hacker! You and they know they have an unfair advantage…if you beat them…mwahahaha
So…anyone out there prepared to start a Bot-Hunters Corp?
In the mean time I’ll just keep playing the game by the rules and try to stay away from those angry bots!
Edcognito
04. Dec, 2008
Grandhighmarshal – there is SOOO much you have posted that is so ethically barren its unbelievable… Yeah, I’m one of those people who have no ripped CD’s, DVD’s or mp3’s… Because its wrong.
If you don’t get that – YOU are the one with the Issue. Trying to equate knowing the difference between right and wrong (a healthy ethical standard) and the Inquisition (unhealthy religious intolerance) totally misses the point. We are not “bullies”, or dictators or inquisitors.
>NOT a personal attack on the OP. This topic has degraded to personal >attacks on character. You have attacked his family, his career, his >integrity, his honesty, his morals, his ethics. Frankly you lot need >to take a good long hard look in the mirror. Shame on you.
I will not apologize. HE brought up the un-ethical behavior AND insulted MY military service…
IS what he does illegal? Yes? Then its wrong. Whether or not it hurts the in-game experience is irrelevant. Clearly what the author is describing is cheating, cheating is wrong, and he clearly tries to rationalize it.
Macro’ing is wrong. Period.
GrandHighMarshall
04. Dec, 2008
Edcognito
I guess I’ll just burn in Hell for my online gaming opinions.
If you chose to take ANY of what the OP or I said to heart…then that’s your choice and your problem, not ours. You had the choice of not taking it personally, you chose otherwise.
Again another useless and off topic post (for the most part).
Your last paragraph was the only on-topic part. You don’t agree with macroing and you think it’s wrong. Good point nuff said.
No need for the emotion and personal attacks.
My suggestions for moving forward:
1. Stay on topic.
2. Keep the personal character attacks out of it
3. If you have nothing good to say…is it at least constructive to the argument?
PEACE
AmusedObserver
04. Dec, 2008
Ecaf :”But as you said yourself, this is a game. A game can and, in my honest opinion, should be one place where we can be black and white. If not here then where?”
In my view this IS why EVE is good, its free form, there are shades of grey. There is no set way to play the game, you can macro, you can prey on macroers. The very existence of the macroers actually adds another political dimention to the game and I think this is why CCP is largely inactive on the issue. They like the fact that people are expieriencing real emotional fallout from this, people are actually getting angry! And its real anger about in game events, not role play anger.
How deep can an MMO with rules set in stone be? What people want is an acurate parallel on life, not a game where rules are enforced by totalitarian GMs. (If you do want that then there are plenty of alternatives. WoW?) Anyone remeber the BoB dev blueprints scandal and the fallout?
ShardowRhino
05. Dec, 2008
Alright, I want to say that no one should be disrespecting anyone’s military service. It doesn’t matter what nation you are from, its something that should be respected as protecting one’s nation is a noble act. So if anyone is attacking such, they should really rethink what they are saying and possible just walk away from the keyboard.
Second, people shouldn’t be putting their military service into a conversation as a prop to be used. If your in favor of cheating, your doing yourself as well as those that have and are actively serving by trying to justify breaking the rules. If you do so then you invite questions as to how you served and that should be beyond the scope of this discussion. Also what you did in the service of your country does not justify breaking rules of a game. Thats sort of a low card to play in this discussion and makes light of what you and others have done.
IF your bringing it out as an example of how rules and discipline and such are a good thing or required in life, thats fine. Bringing out your service history should not warrant nor invite attack from anyone but the sorriest sons of bitches out there. IF someone did attack you over it then that basically justifies complete dismissal of anything they had to say at any point in the conversation.
As for my opinion on the article itself, well thats laid out in my counter argument piece you can find on the front page of E-M.
Try to keep the discussion civil.
ShardowRhino
05. Dec, 2008
Edit to the above post:
“If your in favor of cheating, your doing yourself as well as those that have and are actively serving *a disservice* by *trying use it* to justify breaking the rules”
fps_bryan
05. Dec, 2008
How can I get in touch with ‘Eve-Player’, don’t see an option on here to send him an email.
Personally, dude if you wanna macro, then rock your macro! Who cares, it isn’t diminishing my game in anyway.
It’s a reflex action in modern culture for people who are mentally conditioned to continually wait for things to soil their panty liner when someone skips ahead. Get over it, don’t base your feeling of success on someone else, that’s just not good.
flawed_logic_does_not_compute
05. Dec, 2008
1. Macroing is against the EULA. You don’t care? Then you should not have the privilege of playing the game, plain and simple. Playing the game signals acceptance of the EULA, and the consequences of a breach. Please do not post angrily when you are banned, as it will be a further waste of words.
2. Irrelevant. This does not make you ‘better’ than ISK-sellers.
3, 5, 6. Asserting that the only way one can ‘hurt’ the game is by selling ISK is selective argumentation. You hurt the in-game economy by reducing the price of minerals, thus ruining the income of non-macroing miners.
Ironically, in that fashion, you also degrade your own income. If you (and the rest of your EULA-breaching contemporaries) did not macro-mine, you would find the time you spent physically mining to be much more lucrative, allowing you to compete with all the phantom 12 year-olds with no homework you so greatly detest.
You’ve obviously put a tremendous effort into deflecting any and all responsibility from yourself. These 8+ years of macroing in MMOs have left you with your own selfish worldview, to the point where your logic system is in complete lockstep. It is, however, inherently flawed. Ask yourself, though… are you any good at EVE? Are you good at any of the games you ‘play’?
Sounds like you’ll never find out.
Edcognito
06. Dec, 2008
YAY! Lets all use out of game mechanics to gain an in game advantage –
Like a certain 0.0 alliance using contacts they had with people to get an in game advantage…
Why does anyone remember that if “its just internet spaceships” and “we’re just getting our panties in a knot”?
Bah!
Progressive Dude
11. Dec, 2008
So, I give up.
I managed to find a link, and I will be a new macrominer.
“if you cant beat them, join them”
I will tell you when I earn my first 100bucks on real life. After all, this game can turn useful!!!
In addition, I will be able to afford multi-account so I can have one character for fighting other one for manufacturing and research… bunch of advantages.
IActuallyReadTheRules
16. Dec, 2008
From the EULA
“…You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game…”
specifically “at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play.”
As I understand it rate = amount/time.
What EVEPlayer does cannot possibly earn him anything at an ACCELERATED rate when compared to ordinary gameplay. I would even argue that a real player, minute per minute, could earn money at a greater RATE than EVEPlayer, because bots aren’t perfect and generally can’t recognize things as well as a human.
What he does isn’t specifically forbidden by the rules everyone is yammering about. And don’t try to tell me I’m arguing semantics…that’s what rules ARE. If CCP wanted, they could have different language there (for example, read WoW’s EULA) but they don’t.
So, where’s the moral high ground now?
EVE Player
17. Dec, 2008
I think all of the hub-bub has died down now so this will be my last planned response.
I’d like to thank all that chimed in, even the ones that chimed in completely out of tune. I have to say that there was a lot inference in what little explaining I did in the original article when it came to explaining who I am. I feel I expounded on some things in the three posts I did (with this one being the fourth). Retorting to the personal attacks is utterly useless so I won’t waste anyone’s time by doing so. I am who I am, and I’m someone you’d probably get along with.
I find IActuallyReadTheRules post the most interesting because up until then I was sure I was breaking the rules. Perhaps, if his interpretation is correct, that is the most convincing reason as to why CCP considers macroing against the rules, yet rarely (if ever) does anything about them.
I can say for certain that my macro can not compete with a human at the controls. I consider whatever I can do myself while at the controls to be the benchmark and right now, I’m at best 75% of that. I think I will keep it that way too, because if I did start to rake it in perhaps that would draw attention to me.
So, in a nut shell, if CCP allows a player to be logged in for 23 hours a day then they would have to calculate what a player could do in that time frame. If my macro ran for that long I would definatly fall short of the mark. So, as far as I can see it, it is no wonder that they say it’s against the rules but do not enforce it.
As for those that use the moral or ethical arguements either for or against the properness of what I do, I say be careful as philosophers can easily pick apart such ideas until they have no basis whatsoever.
My article was not intended to sway folks to “come to the dark side” (sorry, had to throw Star Wars in here somewhere). It was instead intended to challenge the stereo type that one may have about those that do macro and why they choose to do so.
I have recently been studying CCP as a company and have seen just about all videos related to them. I never once got the impression that anyone working for them is a moron. In fact, some of them are quite intelligent and passionate about Eve. If they want to squash me and my kind, they certainly will, so don’t worry about our fate within Eve and instead just enjoy the game as you choose to play it.
PS: I was Navy, not Army. I’ll forgive the insult
Frosty
18. Dec, 2008
It looks like all your doing is using AutoIT. If your into Macroing at least use a mans tool like Innerspace, which can read the memory and even works while the game is minimized.
cincannatus
20. Dec, 2008
Nope. It is not that the argument died down, you quite conclusively lost the argument so there was nothing left to say. Though i may add to ‘i read the rules’, ask eve-cheater to submit his macro to eve online and see what they do. i think that would establish whether it was breaking eula or not. Do u not think?
Mining Robot
22. Dec, 2008
Great article man.
Professional macro’er myself. I do it for the same reasons as you. For personal enjoyment/satisfaction not income/monetary gain.
The only people we hurt are the jealous idiots that cannot figure out how to do it themselves *the ones drooling at the keyboard.
hehe
/good stuff
dubexcalibur
25. Dec, 2008
all this text because the guy dont know what a game is.
so “eveplayer” pick up the queen , places it where it fits best no matter if the rules say it can not go there and continue to claim he is a “player” when is he closer to clueless
Eve Real Player
28. Dec, 2008
Hey dude, I love playing Monopoly(tm) with my friends. The idiots start with 200bucks their wallets while I control the bank and I take 50.000 each turn. I always win!!!!111 Im the game meista oh yeahhhh!!111 da rulerzzzz of eve online universsszxx!!
Havegun Willtravel
31. Dec, 2008
I counterfit money in my basement while you go to work to make it. I’m not hurting you so you shouldn’t have a problem with it. You could learn to print your own money to if you wanted. I haven’t been arrested yet, mostly because the police have more urgent things to deal with and partly because i keep a low profile. Because the government hasn’t made much of an effort to catch me it can’t be that big a deal, so again you shouldn’t have a problem with it. As a benefit to you i sell some of the stuff i buy with my fake cash at discount prices so I’m actualy helping you or someone you might know. You should be happy I found a way to job the system. Actualy, the more i think about it, I’m not. The CEO you met didn’t care because he only wanted you’re subscription. I care because you aren’t playing the game your bot is. The only way i can compete with you is to cheat like you. I can understand why you had fun doing it. Writing good code is like solving a difficult puzzle and it’s quite an accomplishment. It’s still cheating though. I think we both know that
Taskis
02. Jan, 2009
EVE Player said:
“It was instead intended to challenge the stereo type that one may have about those that do macro and why they choose to do so.”
But it didn’t challenge it. Read the responses. It only served to *reinforce* the stereotype. Plus, the word ’stereotype’ seems to imply falsehood. Is a stereotype still a stereotype if it’s an accurate description? It evidently is in this case: for all your eloquent rationalisation, we’re left with someone who A) does indeed affect the game negatively for other players (like many players, I consider that a demonstrated fact); B) has scant regard for the game experience of those other paying players; C) has cultivated a deep-seated sense of superiority based on the (undoubted) skills of a macro programmer. Maybe I have to acknowledge that that is a skill – but despite what Mining Robot had to say:
“The only people we hurt are the jealous idiots that cannot figure out how to do it themselves *the ones drooling at the keyboard.”
… this is missing the point entirely. The two skills being tested are entirely different things. The honest players test their ability to *play the game*; whilst the cheats test their ability to create scripts that play for them. I predict two responses to that:
1) Well, programming is a far more valuable real-world skill than learning how to work an Internet spaceship, right?
2) The ‘cheats’ have to know how to play the game in order to make a script that plays it for them. A computer doesn’t do anything by itself, right?
These would seem good points at face value. But look closer. EVE Online is renowned by its player base. by reviewers and critics, and by the industry as a whole, as one of the most intelligent MMOGs out there. Used in the right frame of mind, it can teach a great deal about maths and economics – not to mention social and organisational dynamics, politics, and so on. EVE is popular because unlike many MMOGs it stimulates the mind and teaches, if not real skills, then at least a foundation for the development of real skills. The reason honest players object to macro-using cheaters is precisely BECAUSE they understand or learn to understand the economic mechanisms involved – at least at a basic level. Certainly, no-one’s going to take a few months’ experience on EVE and conquer the stock market, but to make argument 1) work we have to compare the limited financial and mathematical education that EVE provides with the limited programming education that using macros provides, and judge which is more ‘useful’ in the real world. Debatable, I think.
And as for 2), well, yes: cheats do have to know how to play, to some extent, and in a limited arena. They need to know what to make their macro look out for, and what it needs to do when it finds it. Some, I’m sure, have whiz-bang flashy scripts that can fight NPC rats for them – but in most cases, macroing involves nothing but stripping roid belts. The same repetitive actions, over and over and over and over – with the only variations being running away when a perceived threat jumps into the belt.
Yes, this is skill, of a sort – but it’s the skill level you might expect of a first-day nub pilot, so it doesn’t strike me that it’s a great deal to shout about. It’s also been suggested that gate-gankers use macros so they can wait at low-sec stargates 23/7 and pounce on whoever comes through. Similarly, gate-ganking doesn’t require playing skill: it just requires firepower.
People ask why you, as a cheater, want to play the game at all if you’re not going to actually play it. And I can see the argument often offered by macro cheaters that it’s not really EVE you’re playing – or World of Warcraft, or Everquest, or Lord of the Rings, or whatever else – it’s the game of creating scripts to do what you want them to do. Being a ‘black-hat hacker’, or whatever such people like to call themselves these days. And yes, I can imagine the satisfaction you get from creating a script that works well. But this discussion has drifted off the point. People have been analysing the letter of the EULA, referring to the ‘rules’ as though the written law of EVE is the issue at hand. It’s not. The true issue isn’t about scripting, or mining, or gate-ganking, or user agreements, or game mechanics. But the true issue here is a simple human question: do you show respect and consideration for others, or are you solely focused on yourself and your own gratification, be that rooted in ‘fun’ or actual profit?
I would argue that any cheater automatically falls into the latter category, precisely because they see other people’s game worlds as a resource to be exploited. And I don’t see how any amount of fiddly semantics and attempts at justification will ever change that.
Dissapointed Eve Player
03. Jan, 2009
***when i refer to an eve macro’er, i am talking about those that macro for themselves in game, not for RL money***
I wish people would really realize that eve is a game. we dont know how the market REALLY works, all we know is that the market is player influenced greatly. noone knows if these macro miners are actually hurting the eve economy, i do know that there is a supply and demand. if you cant make much money mining something, mine something else.
also, you dont HAVE to mine. I mean, when i mine, i dont find it all that fun, i usually just run my alt in the background while im missioning, how different is that from a macro? only difference is that im playing my main while i mine instead of trying to make a living while i mine. Should i not be able to do that? of course not, i pay for my alt, as does the macro’er. we both probably dont like mining all that much, i know i dont (who does?) Also, this macro’er probably doesnt have the time to spend mining all the time so that he has enough money.
I have a theory that for the macro’ers that fit my view of a “jedi” macro’er (assuming everyone believes that the jedi are the good guys) are actually helping eve grow. now im not saying im right, if ccp wanted to tell me for sure i would totally change my mind, but i believe this because with keeping mineral prices low, people that dont like to mine can buy these minerals to manufacture. how does this help? well, those people that make enough money on the stuff they make to buy more minerals means more stuff. more stuff = less demand….. whoa! imagine that! as for inflation, the isk from the jedi macro’ers always stays in circulation, resulting in no damage to the economy that i can see.
I would like to put up a small shield hardener by stressing that i dont believe isk farming for RL money is right, but im going to leave that for its own topic.
Ranik
05. Jan, 2009
Interesting article. Great responses from some of you guys.
Andrew
08. Jan, 2009
yes reducing the cost of minerals does help some players enjoy the game more, but not for people who mine to make isk, that makes it take longer for them to get where they want to be.
But i don’t care that you macro as you live in empire, anyone who wants to get away from macros needs to leave their NPC corps and come out to where the real game is.
Glemoran
09. Jan, 2009
First:
in my opinion, indeed “honor” has nothing to do with a computer game. Honor is something very serious, and if someone really thinks he can lose it by playing a game in an “unethical” manner then that guy really lost his sense of reality, he also might be computer addict, so I am sorry for his family. Or he is a “taliban” who spends his every hour making his kids life miserable (you know the type: “if you are not washing your hands now, then how can you hope to go to Harvard later? every aspect in your life is equally important. Come here to take your punishment like a man”). In fact things are NOT equally important, and the IQ is precisely the instrument that shows us what is and what isn’t.
Second:
EVE Player, you are wrong by thinking your macroing is not affecting other players. As many people wrote here, EVE’s economy is player driven, and is you increase the offer, the other miners will have to work much longer to buy, say, their battleship. Since every game hour is payed with real cash, that means you, and the other macroers, make the “human” miners to spend more $$ from their pockets. But for CCP, this is not necessarily a bad thing, I guess.
Third:
But I agree with you when you said it’s not entirely your fault. Indeed, if the game would not allow “robotic” and repetitive actions, then nobody would use the macros. Personally I will never use them because I am paying for this game, and gathering ISK, checking my wallet, checking the market all the time, finding the right moment to sell, is for me a part of the fun. That’s why I never mined or harvested anything (too boring), but I salvaged instead, and I’ll try archeology soon.
If you don’t find anything appealing for you in this game (I mean something to keep you personally in front of your keyboard), then I am rather sorry for you. And maybe that should also be an alarm for CCP: if there are too many robotic players comparing to human ones, that means maybe lack of content, lack of interesting quests, and lack of social game life. I hope this will change with the next update and with WiS.
Spain Dude
11. Jan, 2009
The answer is easy:
- Kick every macrominer in the game. This is not a robot game, but a HUMAN one.
- Increase 2x the amount of yield in every ship. This means, mining become twice as profitable and more players will consider mining as a funny activity.
The minerals supply will about to be the same, as both effects balance themselves.
Cheers
pirate
13. Jan, 2009
When CCP starts banning all related accounts for macroing it will stop plain and simple…
Until then ******* like this will continue to cheat at the game
Edit:No harrassments, please! Thank you.
Anonymous player
20. Jan, 2009
I’m interested in talking to you about how macros actually work in EVE-Online. Please email me. I am looking at this from many angles, and I’d like to know if it was possible to somehow take advantage of the macroing players in 0.0 sec space. In any case, I wish to talk to you. Please use an anonymous email such as I have. banana9141@gmail.com
Deuce D
20. Jan, 2009
“I counterfit money in my basement while you go to work to make it. I’m not hurting you so you shouldn’t have a problem with it. You could learn to print your own money to if you wanted. I haven’t been arrested yet, mostly because the police have more urgent things to deal with and partly because i keep a low profile. Because the government hasn’t made much of an effort to catch me it can’t be that big a deal, so again you shouldn’t have a problem with it. As a benefit to you i sell some of the stuff i buy with my fake cash at discount prices so I’m actualy helping you or someone you might know. You should be happy I found a way to job the system. Actualy, the more i think about it, I’m not. The CEO you met didn’t care because he only wanted you’re subscription. I care because you aren’t playing the game your bot is. The only way i can compete with you is to cheat like you. I can understand why you had fun doing it. Writing good code is like solving a difficult puzzle and it’s quite an accomplishment. It’s still cheating though. I think we both know that ”
This statement is completely obselete to the arguement. What he’s doing is nothing like this watsoever. If you want an accurate statement you should say something like. He built a robot to go to work for him and do his job. It’s nothing like printing money. If you were to print your own money you’d be adding money into the economy that’s not supposed to be there. This guy is just having an automated something do the work for him to earn the money that’s already there.
CF
04. Feb, 2009
Hmm, it’s sad and funny that people are actually trying to justify what the OP describes. The only thing that would justify it is if the rules actually allowed it, I’d love for CCP to clarify on that but I don’t have any doubt they’ll say it’s not allowed. I’ll assume it’s not allowed:
If you used your macro to do something that didn’t give you an advantage, like perpetually crashing rookie ships, than that wouldn’t be cheating no matter what rules it broke, because it wouldn’t give you any advantage. (You’d be wasting bandwidth, so you’d be cheating CCP, but you wouldn’t be cheating in the context of the game).
But when you gain an advantage by doing something that is against the rules, you are cheating. It is as simple as that. I dare you to challenge that.
Nothing more than that has to be said, but heres some consequenses of that pertaining to your “arguments” (those I remember anyways).
12 year olds playing 10 hours a day is within the confines of the game, macroing is not.
Corporate theft is within the confines of the game, macroing is not.
If we take a giant leap of logic and assume you arn’t directly altering the game (the economy) by macro mining, you’re cheating nonetheless. You’re gaining an advantage over other players by breaking the rules…
The owners of the game caring or not doesn’t matter unless the EULA allows it.
That “anyone” can take the path you did doesn’t matter, macroing isn’t within the confines of the game. By your logics it would be ok to actually hack the game, as “anyone” can take that path as well.
So… macroing would only be justified if it wasn’t against the EULA.
Worst regards.
spliff
18. Feb, 2009
good on you OP, hell if you dont get busted why the hell not keep speeding.
its a damn video game kids, you have to understand and realize that people are gonna do what they do, and some people cheat…. welcome to reality!!!!! I would much rather have 80 macro miners for every 1 bob that has gotten GM support to cheat and get T2 BPO’s, have enemy pos’s shutdown etc, etc. It would be much less of a burden on the game and it’s economy
CCP knows all too well what this guy is saying, if you get busted, you quit playing, and frankly… there are that many people doing it that they might just go bankrupt like the rest of iceland. OP made mention of wow and how that worked with certain programs… well i came from L2 and it was much the same (cough cough, except wow players are pansies who cant take death penalties, cough cough). its the same play, different game, there it was walker. Interestingly enough NCsoft actually made the bot to level your character in that game because they knew it would add subscriptions, and a 7$ a month subscription just for the bot. They are still in the green despite a world wide recession, who’s to say if they made the right choice or not 10 yrs+ ago to release it.
People are just palin stupid to think that everyone is a happy go lucky carebear and just wants a hug from everyone they meet. Anyone bitching about this post that cant see the point is a mentally handicaped…. plain and simple truth, rules exist, they are always broken, sometimes it even helps the honest man when they are broken because the rules are that stupid (or the mining system they exist in just plain sucks)
hands down, who in their right mind has fun playing EVE minning ?? save maybe 5-6 insainly devoted tax auditors, i would say no one…. so screw it and let some people get you minerals for cheap if they can.
I know for sure that if you are buying minerals its because you are too damn lazy/apathetic to do it your damn self… without these miners there, you wouldn’t have anything, and you are a idiot to say anything about how it is hurting you and the “eve economy.”
RF
20. Feb, 2009
I am with you all the way man, if i had the programming knowleage and the time to make it perfect i would macro too, but instead i run missions and go pirating for fun
Congratulations for making a great way to get isk, some people buy it, you did get it in a “suspicious” way but at least you did not mess your own allowance with it
Anyways better wrap this up, I am your fan.If you just get bored of EVE and wanna share the code just e-mail me
amerelium
30. Mar, 2009
What a sad little post this is.
Let me sum it up:
You cheat, and use a lot of space trying to justify it.
That is what it all comes down to, pure and simple.
I’m sure you are an inspiration to your children.
Narciass
11. Apr, 2009
LOL
Narciass
11. Apr, 2009
LOL, I find it halarious how serious people take this. Its just macro mining people, Its sitting and mining at the computer without accually being there, you have the game on autopilot, it helps the market prices fall, and its a way for people to accually find a way to buy things in eve without having to grind for endless hours just to buy ends meat. Myself, i have grinding missions just to get a minimal amount of isk – i plan on buying isk from ccp – and I do not feel the least bit guilty , when i first started the game i thought mabye it was a bad idea to buy or cheat for isk, but then i realized in order to make the game enjoyable, and less like i was at work, id have to buy isk –
So it boils down to , what makes you happy and what will make eve fun to you, Dont let all the buttheads with their “Moral” dilemma confuse your judgement reguarding macroing. Your kids arenot gonna become serial killers, and your not going to hell for it, Honestly people is it really that big of a deal? I think not
Blood Ranger Clan » The Sky is Falling
13. Apr, 2009
[...] This is a great read here [...]
Yarrinator
20. Apr, 2009
To be honest, I wouldn’t mind getting in to macro mining. It’s not like you’re getting in to exploits or RMT’s.
Spyte
10. Jun, 2009
Some people think they should be bound by their own promises; some don’t. So be it. For my part, if I sign up to an agreement, I respect it, in letter and spirit.
But CCP might want to make mining a bit more involved and fun.