The Value of a BattleShip … a NPC BS that is!
Published on 20. Aug, 2008 ... written by ShardowRhino, Tags: Articles
Again I return from the cesspool that is the official forum. I find yet another topic that can’t be fully addressed within a normal sized forum post. Below is my attempt at dissecting the subject at hand. That subject is constant complaints against Level 4 missions in Empire space being “to profitable” with weak comparisons to 0.0 space Battleships.
First off, A BS rat is a BS rat is a BS rat. I’ve been to 0.0, to empire, to lowsec, to empire, to 0.0 and back to empire again. When you start out playing EVE in 0.0 on day 2 of your trial and move about during the past few years, you pick up a few things…besides strippers, tourists and sheep. One thing I have learned is that the rats are equal in difficulty regardless of the security level of space and how or where they spawned. With that said a L4 BS rat of the Gurista flavor is no tougher then its 0.0 Gurista counterpart of equal value. So based on difficulty, a BS rat is a BS rat is a BS rat. This also holds true for frigates, cruisers and battlecruisers but no one complains about them.
If the difficulty of destroying any rat in X sec space is equal to that of a rat of Y sec space, why should there be a difference in the level of isk made per kill? What I have, as well as so many other EVE players, have noticed is that a BS that is harder to kill will have a completely different name as well as a change to it’s bounty. However the threads on the forum do not take a look at the difficulty of destroying the rat, merely the fact that it is worth a specific amount of isk. Normally they take the highest bounty of a L4 BS rat and flaunt it as though it was the average. There is a rather large difference between a BS rat worth 1mil and the average BS rat being worth around 650k. That to me is a big difference and over time only the most ill mannered, illogical frak-ups will attempt to argue against it.
2nd, most BS rats in L4,empire missions do not hit the 1mil mark as mentioned above. However in 0.0, both times and in different regions, anything under a mil was considered a joke by the locals. Even 1 mil was seen as “cheap” and no better then vendor trash in other mmos. There is no officer spawns to be had in Empire L4s. No phat lootz to scoop off of them either, which to cause problems between fellow ratters. Does one chain BS rats all day long or kill them all in hopes of getting that spawn with loot worth days of ratting? You will never hear 2 Empire mission runners arguing over such a subject as there is no Empire equivalent now or ever.
There is no chaining multiple BSes worth over 1mil each. It just doesn’t happen in an L4. You simply kill your blob of frigs, cruisers and sprinkling of BCs and take your 600k BSes and hope for more then one, 1mil BS. You finish the mission, turn it in and hope the next mission pays better in LP, agent payout as well as higher BS count. You either do the mission or you don’t. If you don’t like the value of the BSes in the mission you suck it up, pop them and hope for better ones next time, though you know better. The other option is to simply not do the mission and not make any isk.
That brings up the 3rd point, Empire, L4 mission loot is pure junk. When I do L4s I don’t even bother looking into the wrecks because I know already that it is nothing but junk. I have calculated that I can make more isk per hour by getting another mission instead of scooping loot and avoiding the thought of salvaging. However in 0.0 you can have officer spawns with nice loot that will have you set for some time. You can find
hauler spawns carrying a few Indy loads of tasty minerals around. Even the lowly cruisers can have items such as Arbalest heavy launchers you can sell in jita for a good 5mil on a bad day. The average, meaning the vast majority, of L4 loot is complete junk, especially compared to what you find in 0.0. Most named items commonly found in L4s don’t even sell for 50% of the mineral content’s value in either of the trade hubs. Besides how many meta 1 or 2 remote armor reppers does one need any how?
The 4th point goes into the story, the RP aspect of EVE. If I was in charge of concord or any empire I would be worried more about the BS rats that infiltrated “secure” space as opposed to those floating 100 jumps away from the nearest .5 system. Sure those pirates are bound to be causing hell for those unfortunate civilians living on backwater planets and stations but the big money is in keeping empire safe. You will never worry about Concord coming to the aid of a neutral being attacked in 0.0 for good reason. While you
wouldn’t want a pirate organization to amass a navy that could take on concord and an empire at once, it would be pointless to put a higher priority on their forces in 0.0, then those in you secure areas.
The higher bounty should actually go to the highest threat and the highest threat is the one right under your nose that you can’t catch. As opposed to the one light years away and out of your jurisdiction. So in an RP sense, like it or not, L4 BS rats would have a higher bounty then 0.0. Also from an RP aspect how likely would Concord care about what is happening outside of its sphere of influence? This idea could actually go against the value of 0.0 BS rats as opposed to being in favor of 0.0 Players farming them. But no one on the forum will dare bring up such an idea!
The 5th point is how do you view 0.0 space? Did you set out to 0.0 to make tons of isk or did you go out there for the freedom it gives you? Did you go out there to help carve out an empire created and maintained by the players involved or did you go out to become a billionaire hiding in a station and letting others do the fighting? To me 0.0 should be about player freedoms that you don’t get in Empire or even Lowsec, not to
make big money. Both times I was in 0.0 it was to work in a group with people I knew from another mmo. The 2nd time in 0.0 was also to gain access to pvp. Making isk was only something I did to make sure I had the ships needed to pvp in. I was always disgusted when I encountered players that only talked about ratting and making isk and found to be “docked up” when hostiles were intruding in nearby systems.
Better rats, better ore as well as better exploration sites should only be a fraction of the reason to be in 0.0. The main reasons to be out there is to leave Empire space and get away from the crowds, to pvp without worrying about your security rating as well. The biggest reason to be in 0.0 should be about becoming a part of a whole that is out there creating their own empire. The struggles, not just the gains should be reasons to head out to 0.0. I’m sure there would be a lot of people in the various alliances that would agree that isk shouldn’t be the biggest factor of joining an alliance.
The 6th point is why does anyone complain about L4s if they are out in 0.0? Why now, why not 2 years ago? As far as I know CCP has not done much to increase the income of Empire mission runners. Most mission runners I have met have never done a L5. The one I have met that claims to have done L5s on his own was actually making less isk per hour then he could have doing L4s. I can understand that some people believe that because they are in an area with a higher potential for risk that they should be rewarded for it.
However unless CCP increases the difficulty involved with ratting in 0.0,outside of the assumed risk of pvp, there is no reason to suggest they increase the value of BS rats more then they currently are.
Both times in 0.0 it was rare for anyone I knew to be attacked while ratting. They adhered to a few basic rules and made it safely back to a station or POS when a hostile entered the area. By “area” I mean within several jumps from the actual ratter. Those that did manage to lose a ship while ratting were those not paying attention to the various intel channels and ignored local to top it off. These ratters basically got what they were asking for. They made themselves an easy target by ignoring very basic rules. It was those players who I had absolutely no sympathy for when they lost a ship as they may as well have self destructed to save the hostile the time and ammo it took to kill them. If there is a risk to a ratter then the ratter is most likely doing something wrong. If it was not the ratter then something is wrong with the intel channels available and should be looked at by the various CEOs who want to see the tax generated isk keep rolling in. What they do with that isk is none of my business.
In the end the call to nerf L4 missions is flawed, deeply flawed. That ignores the question of what the “carebears” are doing with all of that isk they are bagging. It ignores the fact that they contribute to the access of faction gear that 0.0 players purchase off of the markets. Another question is how much fun are they having with that isk if all they are doing is sitting around in empire? Either way if 0.0 was worse then L4s, Empire corps would have a swell of players abandoning 0.0 for the lucrative missions of empire space.
Until such a ridiculous exodus takes place or a whiner comes up with a half convincing argument it is safe to say that 0.0 is still seen as the destination for making big isk and for very good reasons.
17 Responses to “The Value of a BattleShip … a NPC BS that is!”
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Jacob Mei
20. Aug, 2008
After point three you lost me. I run L4’s routinely and I can firmly say that loot in L4 is quite lucrative. There are drops worth 5 million, though the chances of getting this are likely about the same for an officer drop in 0.0. That said im sure looting in 0.0 is still far more profitable than running L4’s all day.
In my opinion the reason so many are complaining is in retaliation to the recent proposed changes to security and nano’s with the mindset that if THEY complain enough, L4’s will get nerfed.
Baron
21. Aug, 2008
I’ve lived in 0.0 for over a year and I have never seen a officer spawn and I haven’t seen a faction spawn in over 3 months. And the faction spawns I have seen drop nothing worth anything.
With a full t2 ishtar fit and not salvagind/looting I can only make 15mil an hour ratting. Thats 5mil less then most mission runner claim to make, and considering I’m ratting in 0.0 theres something very wrong with that. there 10% of good 0.0 and the rest is absolutly crap, and the 10% of good 0.0 is held by large powerblocks. Take Cloud Ring for instance, there is only 1 system in the entire region that has a chance of spawing an officer spawn.
Also running a l4 mission outside a mission hub has next to no risk assossiated with it, you don’t ahve to dock up because a 5 man gang turns up in local, so long as you don’t do anything stupid you can run missions with a neutral sitting next to you. I can easily end up losing 20-30mins ratting because theres a group of neuts who want a fight. Sometimes you can even end up with fights lasting over an hour.
So either l4 missions need a nerf or the majority of 0.0 needs to be buffed to be in line with the risk of living there.
sableye
21. Aug, 2008
you know people did complain about level 4’s in past even before they were out the problem is not really level 4’s thought its theunending resource they are you talk about 0.0 rats like alot of people do that they are undending fountain that spawns when ever you enter a belt which is not case .
Most 0.0 systems are crap and even these crap systems that really can not support eve 1 player tend to have more than 1 player in them. If they let us run level 4 missions from anywhere remeotly no one would complain.
Evelgrivion
21. Aug, 2008
I don’t care that the non-ISK rewards are poor. I don’t care that you can’t make the vast fortunes of people who get obscenely lucky and get an officer spawn (I have had four, and only two, the crappiest of them, gave any officer loot – the grand total I have received, ISK wise, is less than a billion from four officers).
What I care about is that it is risk free money, and is enough for an easy living. Risk/Reward is broken, and people who do little beyond grinding for ISK are doing very little for the economics that actually pertain to the fun part of the game; blowing people up.
People need to take some risks if they are out to make significant money, and I’ll concede that lowsec is not worth the dangers it currently provides. However, I think level 4s are doing way too much to just pour ISK into an already crazy economy, which for far too many people, revolves around getting the shinier and shinier ships. It seems like they do it for the sake of having them.
This is the World of Warcraft game mentality, and I do not like seeing it in EVE Online. CCP has been taking great strides in trying to be the game I want to play, and WoW is not the game I want to play.
Novaseeker
21. Aug, 2008
This debate is about a clash of playstyles, which also reflects a clash in underlying ideology about what EVE “is about”.
EVE will always have carebears. Nevertheless there are plenty of non-carebears who think that carebearing should be less lucrative than non-carebearing, because non-carebearing is more risky — hence the incessant repetition of the “risk v. reward” mantra.
But the reality is that some of the most lucrative things in EVE (T2 building and selling, remote market trading, researching) also involve near zero risk and can be done with relatively the same start up capital that a combat oriented pilot would use to gear up for level 4s. There is therefore no reason to single out level 4 combat missions as being problematic — the people who are the richest in EVE did not get there through level 4 combat missions, and many of them also never leave high sec either, because they don’t have to leave high sec to do what they do.
When viewed that way, the argument in favor of nerfing high sec mission runners really comes up empty. Yes, they make a lot of money, if they are grinded. But nowhere near as much money as if the person chose to be a non-combat oriented character, and truly carebear in high sec. The difference is that more people choose mission running because it is the most brainless way to make money compared to the other high sec ways — but surely that shouldn’t be an issue. As it is now, a player with braincells can make craptons of ISK in high sec with a modest investment and really small amounts of risk (some venture related risk, but not really … if diversified, you *will* make a lot of ISK in the long term) … much more than the average mission runner makes.
Which brings me to what I think the real agenda is here: nerfing carebears. Mission runners are simply the most visible group, because they are undocking the agent stations in BSs all the time, and they are also the most popular way to earn ISK in high sec because more players prefer to pew pew than to work out virtual business plans. The traders and researchers are invisible, either docked, running between the station and their high-sec POS in a shuttle, or, if you are careful, present in the green buy orders on the market screen … but who really scrutinizes those? Not the average pew pew-er, that’s for sure.
Why the call to nerf carebears, and why now, since carebears have been in the game since the beginning and level 4s have been in the game for 2+ years? The simple reason is that people are pissed that high sec is getting a security boost and that techniques like suicide ganking are getting a nerf — so it’s open season on lobbying loudly for a counter-nerf that will hurt the carebears. The reality is that the game HAS NEVER BEEN BALANCED IN TERMS OF RISK AND REWARD. You could always earn a crap ton in high sec as a trader or T2 producer or BPC producer or what have you. This is nothing new. What is new is that the pew-pew set feels all brought down because of some” nerfs coming their way, and so they are lobbying for a counternerf while being so deeply cynical enough as to phrase that under the banner of “balancing”. Twe’re ne’er so balanced, mate. Never. And it never will be. Why? Because a goodly part of your reward is that you get to pew pew in the space where you prefer to live, and you don’t have to pour over market reports, manage multiple research projects, plan and manage the logistics for highsec production, mineral supply and research POS operations and the like … that would make your pew-pew eyes glaze over. So for the people who can stomach that, go the rewards, whereas you get your pew pew, which is reward in itself, and your ISK rewards are not so shabby either.
So enough of these arguments. CCP is not rebalancing missions the way that the nerfbois are screaming for. It’s not even on the devs’ agenda, for goodness sake. All of this is wailing and gnashing of teeth that will in the end achieve absolutely nothing.
Ervol
18. Sep, 2008
You should read the l4 nerf threads a little better.
I don’t care about lvl 4 missions/ratting etc whatsoever but i like to read the whine posts.
The complaint is about how many ISK you can make per hour.
This includes Salvage and loot.
If you take this all in account u can make more money in highsec doing lvl 4 missions per hour than with ratting in 0.0
Unless you have a 0.0 with a very very good market which doesnt tend to exist.
indytims
18. Sep, 2008
Low/no-sec peeps should really get over it, and stop whining about L4 missions in high-sec. “The risk is too little”…. wahhhhhh!!! Let me go whip up a t2 tissue for you to cry with!
The fact is – YOU can go run l4 missions if you feel they are ‘too lucrative’. You’re more than welcome to join those people and make the same ‘risk free isk’ all you want. If they have it so easy – join ‘em!
Oh, you don’t want to do that? Big surprise. But you avoid it by choice.
To Shadowrhino – excellent article, and I think it simply magnifies what so many low-sec players are simply in denial about. There’s plenty of room for PVP and PVE players in this game. PVP players really need to get over themselves, and accept it. Stop being jealous, stop thinking the grass is greener, and STFU and play!
ShardowRhino
22. Sep, 2008
Exactly, no one is stopping anyone from doing L4s in Empire. To be honest if I was in an alliance and was completely consumed with the idea that L4s in empire was were the money is at, thats where I would go. I’d set up a clone and spend some time in some random system doing L4s a few days a week.
The problem is when I was in Roadkill I had left a clone in an empire system that I could do L4s in. The idea behind it was if I couldn’t make more isk out in Geminite,again the region most 0.0 players suggest is the worst when it comes to isk, I could simply jumpclone to empire and make isk. Thing is I never exercised that option in one of the worst regions for making isk, to me that says a lot.
Not every alliance is going against BOB or any other massive opponent that has a good chance of having people in a lot of empire systems. So theres always a place someone can do L4s without being discovered by the other side and station camped to death via boredom.
The idea of starving out empire players is ridiculous. It shows the complete disconnect between 0.0 players and empire “carebears”. Had they spent time talking to the carebears they would have noticed what I did. That is they needed a reason to go out and shoot at each other, one that was supported not by greed, ego or anger but one that was designed into the game. That was addressed by the introduction of Faction warfare, not whining about removing L4s.
No one is stopping anyone from doing anything in game. There are few instances where players are forced to do something they don’t want to. When they meet such reasons most tend to simply log off for something they would rather do.
After doing some L4s not to long ago, I would have to adjust the hourly payoff to around 10-15mil as opposed to 15-20. It all depends on the mission and a lot of the times the lower end missions that still take up a significant amount of time dominate the assignments.
Thanks for the supportive comments and visiting Eve-mag as well.
~Rhino
roger
06. Oct, 2008
Isn’t the whole point of higher <0.4 missions ratting etc that you can be peacefully ratting and then someone flys in and kicks your bottom?
that should weild bigger payouts!1
Tony
03. Nov, 2008
So null sec player come to Empire and run missions all they want too. Nothing is really stopping you since sec status could be easily brought back up by killing the battleship spawns in every belt of null.
Low sec players should train the more useful skills and scan down the runners that have to go into low sec to complete their missions.
“Carebears” are not doing things with “low risk” as corps dec’ each other all the time to try to force them out of a missioning system. Of course POS’s aren’t being seiged all the time, but the market competitors must compete other each other than against the consumers. Research, manufacturing, and industry is much more rich in null and low sec from the bonuses that POS’s and stations recieve as well as having better ore.
Of course I get money to further my goals, might that be getting a new ship or getting more capital to start up a new venture. With out trade hubs like Jita a lot of the items couldn’t even get down to low/null sec to build those cap ship or supply your wars.
Just learn the game and setup some clones in mission hubs. Join us for a few days and grind if you want. I’m not stopping ya.
Beowolf Schaefer
08. Nov, 2008
One element that everyone seems to be forgetting is the logistics involved. One of the previous posts refers to the ‘risk-free’ T2 manufacturers and researchers etc. and though their risk is reduced it is still there. You have to take into account that a T2 MFG char is spending time moving his high value materials and wares and each time taking a risk and spending time.
You also have to take into account the fact that any loots picked up by a 0.0 ratter has TO GET TO EMPIRE or elsewhere to be sold. You often do not even have the option to reprocess your loots in 0.0 depending on the location. This adds risk and time involved in making the Isk. Mission runners rarely have to deal with these logistics unless they want to and when they do its in high-sec where the risk is severely lower.
The Isk per hour argument kind of breaks down a little when you realize that you really don’t have to do anything other than run missions to be a successful mission runner but to be a successful 0.0 ratter or other higher value occupation you have a large number of supplemental tasks (which often require additional skill training) to complete if you intend to get the full value of your time ratting.
All in all I have felt that lvl4s and 0.0 ratting etc are a little unbalanced as is low-sec. I don’t necessarily want to see lvl 4s nerfed but I do think they should probably be moved to low-sec only and that 0.0 needs a slight boost to either bounties or the chances of getting an officer/faction spawn should be increased. Slight I say. I know I for one have lived in 0.0 for a very long time and have almost never come across these lucrative little guys. Also I am pretty sure that the loot in a Serpentis Admiral in a mission is exactly the same as a Serpentis Admiral found in a belt. I could be wrong but I’m pretty sure.
All in all I don’t think the problem is as bad as many 0.0 players seem to think but I do think some minor tweaks are appropriate especially since CCP has claimed that they would like to encourage more players to get out into 0.0 and I don’t see any reason why mission runners would complain about a boost to 0.0 since they do not go there.
I know its not usually as profitable in 0.0 as grinding missions but I do it because its more fun for me. I’ll keep doing that but I do see an imbalance and even though the game has never been perfectly balanced that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t try to get it better.
kt
12. Nov, 2008
so you are whining that 0.0 isnt just like empire
so move to empire ?
wtf ?
just because 0.0 is more “risky” doesnt mean you should automatically profit
in fact, seems to me the opposite is true
its lawless frakking space for gods sake. only the truly strong and smart will come out ahead
you want to turn it into empire, which it is not
Beowolf Schaefer
17. Nov, 2008
If the difference between empire and 0.0 is as you say the fact that is is “lawless space”, how exactly would increasing the rewards in 0.0 slightly make it more like empire?
I never said anything about reducing the risks in 0.0 whatsoever.
Learn to read and maybe look into those punctuation and capitalization things too KT.
RiddeledCorpse
20. Nov, 2008
Let me firstly explain the problem the way I understand it form what I have read
0.0 players believe that the amount of ISK that they are making in 0.0 shooting at Battleships in the belts are less than what an Empire Bases character makes running lvl 4 missions.
My thoughts on the matter are based on experience as a 0.0 player as well as having spent lots of time in empire grinding lvl 4 missions.
Firstly, where am I supposed to find battleships to shoot at in Empire other than lvl 4 missions?
Hell you have them spawning on jump gates in 0.0, are you saying that because your in 0.0 you’re the only ones that should get battleships to shoot at? Let’s follow that train of thought for a moment. CCP makes the change that battleships are only allowed in 0.0 (the reason why I say only 0.0 is because you sure don’t find and BS in empire or low sec belts) Now you have a whole lot of mission runners that can’t make any ISK anymore so they join the alliances that own 0.0 space and they start farming those belts you used to be in (now your making less ISK) and they start flooding your poorly populated 0.0 markets with loot and salvage, in the process the prices for the items start to drop massively because there is so much of it (now the loot you have don’t sell, because I know you have been putting your loot/salvage on your markets for 3 to 4 times the value of empire, so now your making less ISK). Remember that any time whilst flying through 0.0 currently you find system that do not have a single person in it ratting. So empire prices sky rocket because there are more of the good stuff (loot and salvage) in 0.0 and less in empire. Now to get the maximum profit you have to get your stuff to empire but your problem now is that there are so many ppl in 0.0 that your are more likely to run into raiding parties looking for cheap ganks on ratters so your risk of getting to 0.0 is higher, are you now going to call for higher bounties on your 0.0 rats to compensate you for the risk vs reward?
I know that is very long winded and is only on of several scenario’s that can play off however it is very likely to follow that trend since ppl are sheep and they will go where the grass is greener.
Secondly we have to take into consideration the lvl4 mission that are being run in 0.0 npc space, this is always a hotly contested thing because if your going to change lvl 4 mission well then they should not be allowed on 0.0 NPC space the other thought is that if you move lvl 4 mission to low sec then they should pay out more since you have just increased the risk vs reward of a lvl 4 mission.
I suggest everyone calling for a nerf to lvl 4 pay outs should pay head to the following saying “Be careful what you wish for because you might just get it”
PS: I wrote this quickly and have not checked the spelling etc so bear that in mind
Dagda Morr
04. Dec, 2008
I think a point to remember is that most “carebears” are not amassing ISK for the sake of it. A significant number of people fund their PVP through running Lvl4 missions on alts. In doing so they can afford the ISK and time to form up the roaming gang and go looking for trouble, they can fund the Cap ships that every alliance needs and buy the mods to ship out to 0.0 to populate the market.In sovereign space, that is actively defended, the risks to ratters are comparable (not quite as low) to those running Lvl 4’s – overall there is little difference to the risk/ratio reward if the ratter is smart and in a half decent alliance.
Havegun Willtravel
31. Dec, 2008
Some interesting opinions but alot of you are missing the point. Here’s my background: I play eve because i think it’s fun. It’s fun because i like to shoot stuff. I dont mine or trade, it’s not what interests me. When i started 6 months ago i grinded missions for better ships and mods. The salvage, bounties, and mission rewards were the only way i could afford to get better ships. I ground level 2’s to get my bc and level 3’s to get my bs to do level 4’s. I ground level 4’s to get a spare bs for when my corp went to 0.0. I still do level 4’s because they’re kinda fun. 0.0 ratting is ok but it’s very rare to have more than 5 or 6 targets to shoot, and complex’s are very rare. When i want a target rich environment with lots of stuff to shoot at level 4’s are the way to go. Having ratted in both the Great Wildlands and Geminate i can guarantee you, I made alot more in 0.0, even crappy 0.0 than you will ever make doing level 4’s. As a noob i dont trust my pvp skills in 0.0 enough to fly with +4 implants so i keep those in my level 4 jc and fly 0.0 in easily replaceable +1’s or 2’s. When i jc to empire to speed up my skill training i want to have something fun to do = level 4 missions. Make sense ? Move level 4’s to low sec and they’ll end up just like level 5’s. No one will touch them, they’re not worth the risk of getting scanned down by a gang who are set up for pvp when you’re set up for pve.You’re guaranteed to loose. If you’re looking for a perfect way to ruin them that’s it. As for getting rich running level 4’s, get real. Even grinding them, they only pay well enough to finance a basic pvp cruiser fit. The speed nerf was about balancing the game so that one ship type wasn’t invincible to everything else. Nerfing missions is about ruining peoples fun. No fun = no subscription = eve goes out of business = no fun. We need more not less missions and in more places. Give me something to test out my new af before i take it to 0.0, give me level 4’s where the agent says i can only use a cruiser or bc. Make it challenging, keep it fresh, and most of all keep it fun. That why we play isn’t it ?
Shardowrhino
02. Jan, 2009
Hey,
You wouldn’t happen to be the same guy i saw out in Geminite a few days ago?
If so welcome to Eve-Mag. I gotta say that I like the idea of having L4s that require various classes of ships. That would definitely change things up.