When losing means nothing … a gentler, kinder EVE

Published on 02. Dec, 2008 ... written by ShardowRhino, Tags: Articles

by ShardowRhino …

Mining
Photo credit: padraicb

Cheat:
1. To act dishonestly; practice fraud.
2. To violate rules deliberately, as in a game

As an Eve-Mag contributor I put in a lot of effort into the articles I write. I do what I can to help better the site as well as help the other writers when possible. All of it is a continued “effort”. The reason I put forth the effort is because it is going into something I enjoy but also something I want to see become more then it is or will be. Effort is something you put into something you enjoy and or believe in.

A lack of effort suggests that an individual does not care about the subject. When someone no longer cares about the subject their judgment can become questionable. When you add “personal gain” to the equation that judgment will inevitably fall in favor of the individual’s desires as opposed to what is right. What is “right” can be morally correct. “Right” can also be what is allowed by the rules of game. “Right” can also be what the laws of the land have put forth. The idea of doing what is “right” can also be a mix of all of the above. Doing what is “right” is not in the interest of individuals that have something to gain and no longer care about the subject at hand.

Personally I have a feeling that the author of “The Sky is Falling” may be bullshitting about what he says is fact. However my style isn’t to just brush it off as bullshit and ignore it. Instead I prefer to look at what someone says and start to dismantle it regardless if it is true or false. Truth or lie, the goal is the same and that is to reduce the opposing point of view to scrap. It is in such a state that the argument cannot be used again with any chance of success. If they wish to present another argument or point then it receives the same treatment until the person is left with nothing to defend his self and or actions with. It is through personal experience that I can say that a liar, cheat or fraud will become increasingly desperate as you rip apart their arguments. At times these people appear to be nothing more than whiney, selfish and obnoxious children in the body of an adult. Their arguments never consider others, instead they focus on what they want and disregard the effects on those around them. EVE is a Massive Multi-player Online game with thousands of players. The following article’s goal is to thoroughly dismantle the argument made in favor of allowing the author of “The Sky is Falling” to macro mine. To reveal the selfish ideas behind the article whose supposed goal is to inform everyone on how macro mining works. In the end I hope the readers will see the unnamed macro miner and the rest of his kind for what they truly are, nothing more than selfish, whiney, self righteous, obnoxious cheaters.

“Not only am I LIKE the Cheshire cat, I’m also just like you! ~The Evil Macro’er”

Who does the macro’er think he is fooling besides himself? Personally I always liked the Cheshire cat and for him to compare himself to such is an insult to a work of literature as well as memories of every kid that saw or read Alice in Wonderland. The Cheshire cat served a real purpose within the story unlike a macro miner within EVE. The Cheshire cat had a personality, unlike the faceless macro miners. The funky purple cat was memorable again unlike the macro miners. The cat also served as a sort of guide or aide yet a macro miner is nothing but a faceless annoyance robbing new miners of potential profits. How one such as the “nameless” macro miner could compare himself to the Cheshire cat suggests he is as backwards as his justification for macro’ing in the first place.

I find it even more amusing as he offers up nothing to suggest that he is anything remotely like me. He believes in ignoring the game rules while I abide by them. He believes in doing nothing to earn what he has in game, unlike I and the vast majority of EVE. He believes that because he has justified his actions to himself, no matter how weak his reasoning may be, that everyone else should feel that he is anything but a cheater. His entire article is full of fallacious arguments, white washed with weak comparisons in an attempt to hide the truth. If you’re a cheat its always a good thing to start an article with a massive lie since it makes all of the smaller lies seem less. I guess its how articles are written in the backwards world of a self justified macro miner.

“Mr. D and I met because of my wife’s (who is just as avid about playing MMOs as I am) great skill in networking. She’s a chick playing an MMO, so the advantage is hers from the get-go, right? Well, she played a particular MMO for a few years, one that was small and not well known and eventually she started talking to the guy that happened to run the MMO. A few months later and Mr. D is over at our house spending the weekend just to hang out.”

When I read this I had to laugh as it seemed as though the guy was blind to Mr.D’s possible intentions. I laughed again as someone responded to the article with the same thoughts, that Mr.D wasn’t there to “just hang out” with a few fans of the game he was working on. Had the macro miner been able to befriend Mr.D on his own then I and others wouldn’t have thought that D’s goal had anything to do with his wife. The whole scenario seems suspicious otherwise and it would be unlikely for all of this networking to be done without someone calling foul. Such a thing would have caused players to lose all trust in the company as it would have been bigger than the BOB-gate.

The macro miner, we’ll call him MN (short for Macro-Nub) from now on, goes on about showing Mr.D his macro and telling us that D basically said it was cool as long as it wasn’t bothering other players. We’ll most people have this strange thing called manners where they avoid arguing with people while they are their guest in their homes. Its why most of us don’t complain that they offer us a Pepsi instead of a coke or refuse pepperoni pizza when you would rather have mushrooms and onions pizza. Even if Mr.D wasn’t trying to get with MN’s wife, manners would have kicked in and caused D to just brush the macro off. Maybe Mr.D thought he could cut a deal by using MN as a source of info to help crack down on other macro’ers. Much like law enforcement will cut a deal with a lesser thug to get at the head of a criminal organization. Whatever the reason is for Mr.D’s passive disagreement with his host it is unlikely to be what he was truly thinking.

Who loves going to work and having someone undo everything you have worked hard on? Better yet who likes doing something they want to do and loves to have someone come along and trash it, forcing you to start over. It is unlikely Mr.D who worked on creating a product honestly couldn’t care less about someone breaking his work. Games have rules, MMOs have massive EULAs for a reason. The reason is to safeguard their product and ensure profitability by offering entertainment that is fair for those who wish to subscribe. MMOs are different in many then traditional 1 or 2 player games. MMOs are the only games that have a section about harassment of other players. How many non-MMO games have you played that forced you to agree to a clause about not harassing other players if you want to play? The EULA covers a whole slew of things that can ruin a game. No matter how you ruin a game you still ruin it. If you’re a Dev then someone ruining your game is screwing with your job and job security.

I cannot look at what an unnamed dev may or may not have said about macro’ing and accept it as law for every MMO out there, including EVE. When you put the unnamed dev in a situation where he may be working on fulfilling a possible and human goal by pacifying and gaining acceptance while deceiving the male in order to get closer to the female, leaves me with serious doubts. Mr.D’s supposed comments suggest he didn’t truly approve of the cheating MN was doing however he was in MN’s house and didn’t want to be rude which forced him to word his disapproval the way he did. But still it’s not a professional opinion as it was not said in a professional manner , in the sense that it was not an official statement. The comments made were not said in a neutral setting, this reduces the credibility even more. If there was nothing to lead readers to believe a specific female was the goal of the dev, it would have strengthened MN’s claims. Instead it creates additional cracks in the foundation of the self-justification of cheating by MN.

Even if Mr.D was a real dev and he had no intention of getting some of Mrs.MN and he actually approved of macro’ing, it means nothing! It means absolutely NOTHING within EVE as it was not a CCP employee or the entire dev team. Unless Mr.D’s company buys out CCP and switches the EULA to say that macro’ing is fine, then macro’ing is still cheating and still against the EULA in EVE. How do I know it wasn’t the devs of CCP? There was no mention of a six pack of kegs and a truckload of steak and pizzas. Until I read a dev blog or see a EVE TV broadcast with the CCP crew announcing that they couldn’t care less if everyone macro’ed, I’m going to have to say macro’ing in EVE = cheating. The EULA says its cheating. The Devs of CCP say it’s cheating. That must mean if your macro’ing then your cheating . That means cheating is still cheating regardless of what a faceless dev of an unknown game didn’t aggressively disagree with.

Of course I could have simply said 1 dev does not make this quote true. “You would be surprised about the attitude MMO game developers take when it comes to people figuring out how to macro their game.” But that would leave MN some wiggle room or a place to backpedal. Instead it’s better to have just killed this completely. The only real way MN can counter is to reveal his identity as well as the dev. That or get CCP’s devs to create that broadcast but I have a feeling that I’ll sooner win the lotto 3 times over before that happens.

Should I even bother pointing to the fact that the macro’er admits that the game is small and virtually unknown? Would it be fair to suggest the game is in such a state because of the lack of professionalism shown by the supposed Mr.D? I’ll just let that thought simmer in your mind as I’m sure we will come to the same conclusion anyways.

“So, you are thinking by now, “Pirates don’t mess up my game!”. They are not breaking the EULA either! While the first point is somewhat arguable (another article in and of itself) the second is not. They certainly are not breaking the EULA. I’m such a rebel”

I find it strange and almost self righteous for someone that is clearly breaking the rules to compare himself to those that are not. Why bother mentioning pirates and pirating when its clearly within the EULA? Is it a weak attempt to get the reader to sympathize with the macro’er that doesn’t look to blow your ships up, especially when big bad pirates will? There is simply no other reason to mention pirates and their effect on the game other than to be used as a psychological ploy. MN is no rebel, MN is nothing other than a cheater and no matter what way he spins it, his actions are nothing more than cheating. I guess he thought it was a good idea to give an example of players that are gaming within the rules of the EULA and then remind us that he is proudly breaking said rules. Imagine being in court and saying your “guilty” as a means to prove that you’re not guilty! Foolish indeed.

Would anyone really be interested in an article written by someone who shows such bias? In a game where forum posts are dismissed due to someone using anything but their main, how can people take a writer serious when he cannot even use an alt to write under?

“For the last few months or so I have been cautiously inquiring to others about why they are so zealous about ganking those they perceive as being macro’ers. I have yet to get a thoughtful and even agreeable answer, let alone an analysis on the impact of macro’ers, specifically macro miners in the game of Eve Online.”

Maybe it’s just me but MN appears to be looking for someone to prove that he is cheating even though he already knows he is. He knows it’s against the EULA but still comes off as though things weren’t really clear for him. I didn’t realize it was up to the player base to justify the rules of the EULA to cheaters, prior to enforcement. I would ask where in the EULA I could find this rule but if MN doesn’t have to go by it, why should I have to? Apparently MN believes he is special and should be able to play EVE in ways that would be considered cheating for the rest of us. Perhaps CCP should amend the EULA to include,” all of the above rules apply to everyone but MN because he met a dev for another game and didn’t get chewed out in his own house for macro’ing.”.

“A thoughtful and even agreeable answer.” Well, let this article stand in for the thoughtful aspect of the answer. What it will not do is be the “agreeable” answer. Of course we should look at what that exactly means. Yes that means its definition time, again!

a-gree-a-ble
adj.
1. To one’s liking; pleasing:

Since MN has made it clear that he believes he received a mandate from heaven that its okay to macro in one game and surely it must transfer to any game MN plays, not to mention MN believes he doesn’t have to follow the EULA, there is no chance for anyone to give him an “agreeable” answer! This means there is no chance that he will ever believe that his cheating is in fact cheating. The question he should be asking is “why am I so zealous to cheat in a game?” instead of why others are zealous of enforcing the rules of the game. There should be no question as to why people would want to enforce the rules of the game, these people aren’t the ones going against the EULA. Of course why doesn’t MN give a thoughtful and agreeable answer as to why he feels the urge to cheat?

It is truly moronic to expect the playerbase to have an analysis on the impact of macrominers. The last time I checked I couldn’t determine the number of macro miners within EVE. I cannot tell how many hours they are operational. I do not have the total ore output per day, their mining and refining skills. I do not know what ores they are mining. I do not have a list of how much they sell the minerals for either. I am not a dev nor a GM so I can only run numbers on any macro miners I may encounter but those numbers mean nothing without knowing the total macro’er numbers. CCP would have far more information available, even if they do not have solid numbers they have enough information to extrapolate with any degree of accuracy. CCP with the Dr.’s help could shed some light on the effects of macro mining, at least the “monetary”effects. CCP however cannot estimate the damage macro’ing has on the fun or sense of accomplishment of EULA abiding miners. Of course we are talking about MN’s fun, since apparently it’s the only thing that matters according to his article. His “zen like feel” > your fun and accomplishment as well as any sense of fair play.

1.“Macro’ing is against the EULA! – I don’t care. I don’t care in the way that you don’t care that you have not started a fair fight in Eve in a very long time.”

Ahh…assumptions. The majority of my fights have been against superior numbers or ships. Normally it’s a combination of both. An assumption is not the best thing to base your argument off of. I do like how he clearly states that he does not care that hes going against the EULA. I enjoy how again compares his cheating to players that are playing EVE and abiding by the EULA. It’s as though MN lives in his own little world where he can truly compare apples to oranges and say that “oranges are in fact better apples then apples are!” and make sense to the audience of 1, himself. His comparison is similar to someone robbing banks for a living and suggesting that it is just the same as working to earn the money through hard work, sweat and elbow grease. We should really call MN, Dr.phil as he is just as much a psychologist as that fraud on TV.

2.“You sell your ISK for real life money, not fair! – No, I certainly do not. I spent a long time making and learning how to make this macro and I am going to use the proceeds to enjoy the game. True, some could do this, but I do not. It also benefits me to not get caught by selling ISK.”

Dr.phil is a cheater and damn proud of it and couldn’t care less. It’s strange that we are supposed to believe that he does not sell his isk for RL money. “ I did not shoot the deputy” much? Everyone join me in a facepalm at the stupidity dr.phil presents us with. If hes macro’ing 23/7 he is bound to pull in enough isk to run 2 accounts. With 2 accounts he can macro twice as much so he could have any number of alts meaning he could definitely look into ways of washing the isk and selling it on the black-market for RL money. There is supposedly honor among thieves but we aren’t thieves and there was never mention of cheats. There is absolutely no reason for anyone to believe someone such as him. Why in the world would someone that believes he is so clearly justified in cheating not move onto the next step in his chosen path? Of course he could very well be trading his ill gotten isk for GTCs which opens him up to additional questions.

3.“You are ruining my game, stop it! – If I don’t sell the ISK I make but instead use it to purchase items, buy skill books or produce them then I’m helping the economy, not hurting.”

Anyone that is cheating in a game is ruining the game for others. Imagine what professional sports would be like if players could cheat without consequences. How many games would have swung in favor of the losing team if its players could simply bullshit the referees to justify their actions? Could you picture yourself watching baseball if a player could call a foul ball a homerun instead? What would soccer hooligans do if the opposing team decided a goal scored against them was going to be added to their score instead? Would the best players be the best cheats as opposed to the most skilled? Even if you’re not actively participating in the game where someone is cheating it can be frustrating just knowing it’s happening.

But we aren’t just spectators in EVE. While not everyone is a miner it’s unlikely that we do not know at least one that is. For them macro miners are ruining the game. Macro miners are a lot like a swarm of locust as they consume everything in the area and move onto a new system. Macro miners also pull in vast amounts of ore that wouldn’t have been introduced to the market in the form of raw minerals. These raw minerals lower the price your mining friend can get for his own minerals, minerals he worked for. The idea that the macro miner is justified in his actions because he is “helping” the in game economy is negated by the fact that he is ruining the economy for a number of players who have chosen to take up mining as their source of income. This weak and seriously flawed argument is seen in the real world here in the U.S. when it comes to the topic of illegal immigration. In both scenarios “illegal” actions are in one way contributing to the economy but at the same time destroying the economy for those that are playing by the rules. Miners, just like RL workers are left powerless to do anything about the diminishing profits due to the actions of those that are breaking the rules. Which is in no way fair no matter how you try to spin it.

4.“It’s just not fair! – No one is stopping you from taking the path that I did. I’ve never taken a programming course, no one taught me any of this and the macro’ing “playing field” is an even one.”

It isn’t fair and the macro miner knows it. Trying to justify cheating with the idea of “ No one is stopping you from cheating just like me!” flies as well as a brick. Just because someone took the efforts to learn how to cheat the system in no way entitles them to rewards for such. Players are not complaining that they can’t macro mine just like macro’ers, that is taking the argument and reversing it. The true argument is that players that are miners are spending their time to actually do the mining while others are able to cheat the system and profit. The miners are not asking to be allowed to macro as well, instead they are asking for their efforts to mean something by removing those that rob their actions of meaning.

5.“You can mine all day, I can’t, no fair! – I love this one. The amount of time any given player can put into playing Eve has never (NEVER) been fair. It is a fact that some people fall asleep playing Eve, drool on keyboard and everything. Did you ever truly believe that all players are equal in the amount of time they have, what about skill? Do you really think you could ever compete with that proverbial fearless 12 year old that never has homework?? If I can mine 23/7 that is only because everyone else has the same amount of time per day to play.”

Another example where the macro’er takes what people are saying and spinning it around. People that bring up the fact that a macro program can mine 23/7 and that a player cannot has nothing to do with how much time they personally have available. It has to do with the fact that a player is using a cheat to automate mining. No player should be allowed to cheat, be it for 1 hour a day or 23 hours every day of the week. Players should only be able to make gains by efforts that are within the rules of the EULA. While the wording of their point may need to be revised the idea behind it does not. Only a fool would be unable to read beyond the obvious to grasp the idea behind the complaint. Then again doing such may very well be beyond the ability of the macro miner. Not to mention it would hurt his argument in favor of allowing him to cheat.

6.“You hurt the in game economy! – Are you kidding me? Logic this one out a little. Ever wonder why mineral prices shoot up after an expansion? Some of that upswing is because it takes awhile for the macro miners to adjust their code! We defiantly have an effect on the price you pay for minerals and that is, we keep it down. More plainly put: The less minerals on the market, the more you pay.”

“Logic this one out a little”??? Are you serious?! Of course macro miners hurt the in game economy! For those players that are mining asteroids that contain any minerals that a macro’er is also mining, the player is being hurt economically. Every tritanium a macro miner brings in helps to lower the price of all tritanium. The in game economy cannot tell what is a tritanium that was mined illegally and which was brought in by an actual miner. All of the minerals are being pooled together in the market which creates the supply available. Everyone knows the more the supply outweighs the demand the lower the prices are going to be. The fact that macro miners are admitting they are lowering the prices of minerals everywhere proves they are in fact hurting the economy. Just because something does not hurt everyone does not mean it is justified to hurt those that are being affected.

Imagine someone shooting 1 in 20 people and getting away with it because “hes not hurting everyone!”. Could people really look at the situation and say that its okay just as long as they weren’t shot that day? Could sane people ever buy into such illogical nonsense such as this? I think not. People would be complaining by the millions to get the laws changed and the shooters locked up. Unfortunately, because some people benefit from macro miners and couldn’t care less about those being harmed by them, the EVE populace hasn’t called out as one for CCP to take even greater measures to stop macro’ing. To many people are to focused on getting others to play in a way where they will always have an advantage to ever care about working together on anything that hurts the game. I could only hope that the majority of EVE players would be willing to set aside their differences in play style to push for the eradication of cheating.

Unfortunately the rest of the macro’er’s article is justification through the idea that CCP would need to constantly work at busting macro miners. Sure CCP could and damn well should constantly work at breaking up macro miners, forcing them to rewrite their macros to adjust. The fact is FPS games have anti-cheat software built into the game. While it doesn’t always catch everything it forces the cheaters to constantly work harder. It is through this “arms race” as the macro’er put it that cheaters are kept at bay. By mitigating the effects and life span of a particular cheat the game developers increase the endurance of their game by allowing the real players to have fun without worrying too much about cheaters. Games that make little to no effort to reduce cheating are bound to fall quickly as players abandon it. Actual players want a challenge, they want to go against other players and see who is better. This contest between players should be determined by a mixture of reflexes, intelligence and perception, as opposed to who has the best way to sidestep the rules of the game.

One has to ask what was the point of the macro’er’s article? We all know macro miners exist. We all know that there are never enough GMs. We all know from past gaming experience that cheaters and game developers are always trying to outsmart one another. I know that I have seen several macro miners that had automated responses. The only real point of the article appears to be an appeal to lay off and to accept macro mining as a legitimate “play style” if one could go so far as to consider it such. The author appears to have worked hard to twist as many things as possible in an attempt to fool others just as he fools himself into thinking his actions are justified and anything but cheating.

If someone is unwilling to work for their isk in game one way or another within the constraints of the EULA then they need to leave EVE. The reason they need to leave is that they are sidestepping the part of EVE that truly sets it apart from other games. Ask how many EQ2 and WOW players how many times they have permanently lost their best gear due to losing a fight. I doubt there will be many who come back with anything comparable to what the average player in EVE will report. The risk of permanent loss is a big selling point for the majority of players that enjoy EVE. At the same time it is one of the aspects of the game that sends many with lesser nerve to pack up and head to softer, friendlier games such as Warcraft. In the end the macro miners are not earning their isk, meaning anything they lose has no effect on them as no effort was ever made to acquire it.

When there is no risk of actual, permanent loss the player is no longer playing EVE. Instead they are playing a version of wow with spaceships. Let’s face it, if you’re unwilling to play EVE the way it was meant to be enjoyed, including the difficult aspects, then you need to pack up and head to wow or any other game where losing means nothing.

Related article: The Sky is Falling by EVE Player

13 Responses to “When losing means nothing … a gentler, kinder EVE”

Main Target

02. Dec, 2008

Well said Rhino.

I’d just like to throw in:
Macro-ers ruin the game for others; which is a slightly disguised way of saying the fundamental truth behind it — “NON PLAYERS ruin the game for PLAYERS”. Because, when you get down to it, running a macro 23/7 isn’t at all PLAYING the game.

If one is not PLAYING the game at all, then wtf are they doing on it? GTFO. Better yet, play legitimately. Key words there. PLAY. LEGITIMATELY.

In the end, what is the point? Neither a macro-er or a real player end up having fun playing the game. The real player? Well he’s definitely pissed off that his belts are mined out, his rats are constantly popped, and his sell orders are constantly undercut. The macro-er, on the other hand, cannot be playing (read: it’s a damn macro) and thus cannot be having fun playing (read: requires PLAYING THE GAME).
The only enjoyment that can come out of this is for the macro-er to take pleasure from exploiting technology or the game its self to ruin the experience of others and bypass intended use of the game, or from an illusion of superiority over real players. I have three words for the macro-ers that are like this: Sicko, pathetic, compensating.

tl;dr come on guys, the truth about macro-ing is so OBVIOUS (i.e. that you are wrong to macro), so cease your nonsensical justifications and join the light side of the force. If not, then please gtfo the game.

Also, The Game, you just lost it.

~ Main Target
Corelas

02. Dec, 2008

Ad hominem, ad populum, slippery slope, non sequitur, fallacy of accident. Check. This article is full of fail.
omberjack

03. Dec, 2008

Lack of supported arguments, proof by example, etc? Check.
Probable lack of consideration of the impossibility of determining a direct correlation between cause and effect? Check.
Your post is full of fail Corelas.

P.S. Oh wow congrats on being able to wiki fallacies. You are t3h winrar.
/sarcasm
Beowolf Schaefer

03. Dec, 2008

I have to agree Corelas, this article is very poorly written. I enjoyed EvEplayers original article as I felt it was an interesting look at the other side of the macro-ing argument which is as I’m sure most people will agree, a topic which is almost only discussed from the perspective of the cons.

I personally don’t macro and I do mine sometimes but I really don’t care that much what this guy does or not.

This response article however is littered with personal attacks, assumptions and simply lack of comprehension of the original article.

For instance, the reference to the Cheshire Cat was a reference to it’s invisibility and that’s it. I don’t believe that EvEPlayer was trying to infer any more similarity than that and I feel we all got the reference. And the comment about that being an insult to the Cheshire cat is just hilarious. The cat is a fictional character from an opium induced fantasy. If we are really concerned about the dignity of fictional characters we may be getting a little too involved.

I feel what EvEplayer was saying was that you don’t even really notice a macro-er being around and I have to agree. I have played this game for over 3 years now and I cannot think of one single time where I have directly affected by macro-ers in either a negative or a positive way. In fact I sell mins from time to time but I also buy things made from mins at times and so half the time low prices help me and half they hurt. Either way I don’t actually notice the difference. The only reason I even heard the term for it is because of other players’ complaints which to be honest are typically more of a distraction than anything done by the macro-ers themselves.

And then there was this:
It is truly moronic to expect the playerbase to have an analysis on the impact of macrominers.
Wasn’t this the whole point of both yours and EvEplayer’s articles?

And do I really even need to address the comment about EvEplayer’s wife? The author was stating that he didn’t believe that dev’s and GM’s really care that much about macro-ers and he relayed a story which illustrated this and at the same time got to toot his horn a bit about knowing the CEO of an MMO company, big deal. I don’t even see how anyone could infer from the limited information in the story anything about an illicit relationship between the CEO and EvEplayer’s wife. Also for future reference if someone wants to bone your wife they don’t usually set up a play date with you, they go screw her somewhere else!

All in all I can’t say I care much as I spend my time in 0.0 and macro-ers are never going to be competing for either the minerals or the space I’m living in so use this as an opportunity and get out of empire and forget about the macro-ers. Let them keep their trit and we’ll go make some real money and get some real kills. I know, I just hate empire so it’s not a great argument but hell we have plenty of them and at least this one entertains me.
ShardowRhino

03. Dec, 2008

Corelas, the article by the macroer, the guy that doesn’t really play EVE but wow with spaceships, was full of points that were dependent on a ceo of another game? To me that is true “fail” and to defend such in any way is in fact “FAIL”. His entire article was built around an unnamed ceo of a small game no one has heard about. Does that mean everyone in every MMO is subject to the interpretation of a ceo of a different game that was in a situation where a true response could have been considered rude?

ad hominem: the macroer’s methods of “playing” eve is justified in his own mind. He blends himself in with his argument therefore avoidance of “ad hominem” is throughly unavoidable. To go after his argument one is already going after the author.

ad populum: You’ll have to clarify what your referring to. Unless your suggesting that the vast majority of EVE players are in fact cheaters. When it comes down to it, the EULA should be referred to, negating anything any number of players do that is against the rules.

Slippery slope: I’d have to suggest that anything I said is deffinitely outweighed by the fact that macroers can and do ruin the gaming experience for those actually PLAYING the game. Again feel free to actually back up your reply with references.

non sequitur, hahah, that lays with the macroer.

fallacy of accident, feel free to point out what you are referring to specifically.

I am left to see your response as everything you believe the article to be, Fail. What little you did say is without a doubt applicable to the article I am responding to. Please try again.
ShardowRhino

03. Dec, 2008

Beowolf, you basically kill anything you have to say by suggesting that you do not care what the macroer does in game. Add in the fact that you missed the entire point about the cheshire cat remark backs it. Ignoring the idea that the macroer suggests he is like “you” meaning the rest of the playerbase is also seriously flawed. Unless of course your also a macro miner. I am not therefore his cheshire cat+just like you statement is 100% false.

Out of 3 years you have never encountered a macro miner? You suggest that you mine at times as well. To me that seems close to impossible to believe that you have not been effected in some way or another. Early on I used to mine constantly. The problem I continued to run into was a group of mining barges run by a macroer.

I have seen entire systems stripped of every ounce of veldspar. Several times I could find 2 or 3 connected systems left completely barren. On the 4th system I would find a group of mining barges in the process of stripping yet another system. I know I as well as other new players were left with little choice but to fly 5 systems away to mine anything. This leaves the player with the choice to either not mine or to lose profits by having to use a station they do not have standings for. Thats without factoring in the time to relocate 2 ships after spending time to find a system with enough ore to keep a player busy for a while.

Just because the actions of a cheater does not directly and obviously impact your gaming experience in no way mean it should be dismissed. The fact is players that are paying to play EVE are being negatively effected by cheaters. The way I see it, not a single customer should be effected by someone who is cheating the system. As I mentioned in the article, most people are only looking out for themselves and couldn’t care less beyond that.

Oh and as for the comment about the macroer’s wife being involved. the macroer uses the dev she befriended as the basis of his entire article. Its much like presidential candidates’ wives getting in on the act and then feeling that they should be left out of anything responding to them. the macroer put her as well as the dev she knew into the article. He then based the rest of his article off of what the dev said while in the macroer’s house. Pointing to the possible reasons as to why the dev was there and allowed a cheater to help destroy the game he was in charge of is something that should be done. It also points out the unprofessional nature of the dev which apparently has allowed the macroer the right to cheat in any MMO regardless of what company runs it.

Think about it, would someone feel more comfortable with their wife spending time with a friend or a complete stranger? Have you never heard of an incident where a guy has slept with the wife/girlfriend of his friend? Unless you’re living under a rock I’m sure you have heard of at least a few. Add in all of the other relationships that can happen when there is some shielding, such as being coworkers and staying late at the office. Maybe its just me but I’m sure theres more then just 1 other guy that saw how quickly a woman has befriended a dev and has him at her house for the weekend as a massive red flag. Again even if nothing was going on its still a red flag as to the unprofessional nature of the DEV. Can you imagine CCP Dev being part of an alliance that seems to do well? Imagine how bad it would look if that Dev was spending the weekends at the alliance leader’s house. Even if it was 100% friendly it shouldn’t be happening at the alliance leader’s house or the macroer’s.

Oh and thanks for closing your response with “All in all I can’t say I care much”.;)
cincannatus

03. Dec, 2008

Good one rhino. Whilst i am happy that eve-mag published eveplayers article, i am even happier that they gave space for a riposte, which is much needed.
Having read through all the comments on the original article, it did raise some interesting salient points. First i tried to draw a real life analogy. Is it as serious as sleeping with someone else’s wife? Perhaps not. Is it as serious as dropping litter? perhaps more serious. but then i realised i was going down the wrong trail…
2 incidents spring to mind. the other day, i was playing chess with my 5 year old nephew. Though i tried very hard not to, i ended up checkmating him. What did he do? he jumped his king two spaces (an illegal move) and whacked my queen. As funny as that was, eveplayer increasingly begins to remind me of my nephew. a young child who does not yet realise that to play a game, and to truly enjoy it, one must follow the rules of the game. in fact in a game such as chess, it is meaningless without universally followed rules. it is one thing if all players consent to have the rules changed. in eve, we clearly do not…
the second real life incidence to bear in mind is a more general one.
this service is a subscription service. a typical user may pay up to and exceeding 100 dollars per annum to play eve. Now, in this scenario, it is very comparable to subscribing to any other entertainment service like netflix. Imagine if one subscribes to netflix, but someone else hacks into the system. A victimless crime? perhaps in an imeddiate lazy perception yes. but in reality there are very definitely victims. the primary victim is the corporation attempting to charge for a service and experiencing theft, many companies have actually gone bankrupt over people getting a service without paying for it. the secondary victim are the other consumers who as a net result have to pay higher fees to make up for the incidental costs caused by the thief.
The analogies may not be exact, but they do definitely exist. We do pay real money for a real service, this is not some imaginary make believe world that exists solely in our minds. we pay real money for it. To see someone else cheating for that same service…well..
Beowolf Schaefer

03. Dec, 2008

Hey Rhino, thanks for the response.

I don’t really think I ‘missed the entire point’ of the Cheshire cat issue I was just referring to the first of your 2 paragraphs on the section.

As for your second I think what EvEplayer was illustrating was that he is “like you” in so far as he isn’t some faceless Asian sweatshop worker and that he’s not doing it for RL profit. People do often assume those things in discussions on the topic and it seemed to me like that’s what he was responding to. EvEplayer only talked about having one extra machine to run his macro on so we are lead to assume he’s not even macro-ing more than one or maybe two characters. He also makes references to having experiences with other MMOs before finding EvE like I’m sure many of us have done. Mostly I think he was trying to show that he does enjoy the game as the rest of us do. Obviously he can’t be identifying with any of us readers specifically but he was trying to show he didn’t necessarily fit into the standard macro miner stereotypes.

On the topic of my 3 years in the game, I did say I had never been “directly” affected by a macro-er. In addition I haven’t been in a belt in a .5+ system since at about 6 months into the game and to be honest I don’t think I had even heard of the concept back then but I suppose it’s possible I may have encountered it and not known. Either way it doesn’t effect me now to any degree that I’m aware of. Granted other players may have a different experience but this is mine.

As for the guys wife, I have have seen things like that happen before and that’s why I figured the CEO would have just taken her to a sleazy motel or something instead of taking the time to look at EVEplayer’s macros. Either way I don’t really think it’s too relevant to the topic of macro pilots’ effects game play. If anything it is a commentary on the CEO’s ethics and as we have both stated some people are unethical and do break the rules be they personal or professional. At that point you have to then assume that Devs and GMs are going to have a percentage of jerks just like everyone else but it doesn’t change the point that at least some of them don’t seem to really be too concerned about macro use whether you think they are jerks for it or not.

In any case I don’t really agree that CEO’s reaction to his macro was the “basis of his entire article”. It seemed to me he did cover several different points the CEO story just being one of them and he didn’t even mention it in his summary.

I guess “All in all I can’t say I care much” wasn’t the best closing but what I mean to say is that I won’t be losing any sleep over the issue. In the responses to “The Sky Is Falling” some responses seemed to take it a bit far and it’s best to always keep in mind that it is a game and like I said I haven’t noticed it affecting me.

If CCP wants to eliminate Macro use that’s fine with me too but I would probably prefer that they spend their programing time adding content and continuing to improve mechanics and lag.

They do seem to do a decent job dealing with ISK sellers and I would imagine that does help keep down the number of macro users who do fit into the stereotypes to which EvEplayer claims he does not. IE faceless non-players running multiple machines to make RL cash.

Maybe I can close better this time Rhino…

Thanks for the good discussion and fly safe.
ShardowRhino

03. Dec, 2008

Cincannatus , I would have to say your 2 RL examples do a fine job at pointing at the serious flaws in the macroer’s article. Its a lot like when I was a kid and playing freeze tag with friends or my cousins. There was always someone in the group that felt that he could unfreeze because he made up some random rule that he was going to introduce into the game then and there. Of course the rule only applied to him.

While seeing the fool “unfreeze” himself using his own rules into the game didn’t exactly effect the rest of us that played by the rules it still made us mad and resent the guy. When his rules did effect the rest directly he would get tossed out of the game because it sapped the fun out of the game.

The example of online theft which can also be linked to theft of hard items from real stores, is also a good tie into the problem macroers create. In RL stores increase prices to offset theft. While most shoppers have never stopped to think about how someone running off with a cd will effect them, it does regardless. The store needs to recover its losses and the way to do that is to increase prices everywhere else in the store.

In EVE macroers are directly effecting some players and indirectly effecting the rest. I wish there was a way to find how many hours and how much RL money has been sunk into the macro problem. That time spent on macroers isn’t free overtime for the devs. instead thats subscription money being put into keeping the devs working, keeping the computers running and the beer flowing. I would rather have the macroers disappear from the game and the time spent on countering them put to better use. unfortunately thats not going to happen and i believe thats a reason for ever EULA abiding player to resent macroers.
ShardowRhino

03. Dec, 2008

Beowolf,

I think the problem with the opening is that I find the macroer to be rather shallow and selfish. Selfish for believing he is above everyone else who plays by the rules. Shallow in the sense that his reasoning is deeply flawed, fragile and without depth.

It is this lack of depth that I am going after with the part about being like the cheshire cat and the rest of us. His opening is shallow in depth. My opening is turning that line of the macroer upside down by putting depth to something he used in a rather light manner. I am not one to take the idea that someone is anything like me lightly. People have made rather superficial, at least in my eyes, comparisons between me and others they know. Sometimes its not a big deal but when it comes to a question of integrity I will undoubtedly respond quickly, negatively and intensely to the comparison.

The guy is a cheater, I am not. So the comment of being similar appears to me as being nothing more then a psychological maneuver designed to help gain some kind of connect or to get the reader to lower their defenses. If the reader feels comfortable then their response will not be as negative as it would have otherwise been. From that point on the person can further work on the target to get them to buy into what they are saying. The later comparison between himself and pirates reinforces the above by suggesting that hes not out to get you unlike those EULA abiding pirates.

I wouldn’t suggest that the macro has much skill when it comes to persuasion through confusion but he does remind me of some people I have met that were the only child. They can’t twist things well enough to fool someone that is mentally checking what is being said, however a relative or friend would likely fall for it. The reason the relative or friend would fall for it is because they aren’t going into the conversation with the same defenses as a stranger would. I’m a stranger with a “trust no one” mentality so I’m always reading between the lines when something isn’t right.’

About your 1st closing statement and what you said in your 2nd response, everyone needs to remember that its just not “you” playing eve. If something is unfair it should be examined by all of us regardless if it effects us or not. The distance between ourselves and those that are being effected is no reason to give a cheater or anything else that is wrong a pass.

If everyone thought that way in RL then no one would donate to any relief funds for disaster victims. I donated some money for the Tsunami victims a few years back. What happened to them in no way directly impacted my life other then seeing it on the news, in the papers and online, all which could have been easily avoided. At the time i had a bit of money I could spare which lead me to donating it. Did it mean much? I don’t know but i wish i could have donated more. The reason is even though that disaster didn’t touch my life, it touched theirs and as a person I believed that those that could help should try to help. If i was in their situation i would have appreciated their backing. That mentality applies in game, for me at least. Clearly the new miners have my support in anything against pushing for the eradication of macroers.

As for Mr.D and MN’s Wife, the hotel thing could possibly work. But some are better versed in deception then others. So putting up with MN’s macro show to gain his trust which could be later used against him is a definite possibility. Of course I have to say that I am questioning D’s professionalism , not MN’s Wife’s loyalty. I have seen plenty of good women allow a snake into the picture and seem to be blind to the small moves made on them. They play it off as being friendly or people reading into things to much. Some know whats going on but allow it just for the fun of flirting while others are complete oblivious as strange as it seems to me.

As for the Dev not being mentioned in the summary, he didn’t need to be mentioned. The Dev was mentioned early on where his words would be most effective. The reason they are most effective at the beginning is because a dev is in charge of the game they work on. A dev is in some ways a bit like a leader in the sense that their attitude about things have a way of effecting the way others see things.

The dev is the official of the game so his word carries a lot of weight. The goal of putting the dev into the article first is to get you to think,”If a dev doesnt care about macroing then why should i care?”. If the macroer can get you to think this way early on then hes got you where he wants you for the rest of the article. Your going to sit there as he picks apart your normal common sense of ” cheating = bad”. Had he put the dev near the end the author would have a harder time convincing you that macroing/cheating isn’t so bad after all.

I too would like to see CCP able to put all of their efforts into improving the game through additional content. Unfortunately macroers have the ability to harm the game which leads me to the idea that CCP should work to mitigate their effects with the ultimate goal of elimination.

Its a lot like the RL Defense budget of the U.S., its a ton of money that could be used to do a lot of things such as sheltering the homeless. However I cannot be one of those hippies that prance around while shouting how wrong it is for us to keep a standing Army, reading history and having most of your friends in the military will prevent hippyitis. I know there are tons of people that would want to harm a lot of civilians here and in other nations but don’t because they know there is a consequence to doing so. So while sheltering the homeless is a worthwhile cause, maintaining a high quality and sizable military is going to do a lot of good that is hard to quantify. So there are thing in life that need to be done in order to keep things going even if its not what is the most “ideal” thing to do.

I don’t take serious the word of cheaters so I cannot take MN’s word that he only uses 1 machine. As well as that he doesn’t sell the isk. i dont know if he does or not but his word doesn’t help me lean one way or another. A good thing to learn is that those willing to cheat and or lie have a tendency to do so in just about every aspect of life. so its not one lie or one thing they are cheating at and that forces me to question the idea of 1 pc and not selling isk. even if he doesnt its still being done by other macroers and the way i see it is they are all cheats just the same. Thats where that “just like you” bit comes into play. it can prevent you from thinking hes like the rest of macroers even though theres no reason other then his word to see him as anything else.

I think that covers it. Thanks for the replies, especially the 2nd one. as they say,” fly safe 0/ ”

~Rhino
ShardowRhino

03. Dec, 2008

OmberJack, I guess I was posting during the time you posted. Not sure how else I could have missed that. Pure LoL, GG, man, GG would have saved me a reply to the guy.
omberjack

03. Dec, 2008

Thanks Rhino, it’s all in good fun. =P
*thumbs up*
IActuallyReadTheRules

16. Dec, 2008

Comment Cross-posting from original EVEPLayer post

“…You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game…”

specifically “at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play.”

As I understand it rate = amount/time.

What EVEPlayer does cannot possibly earn him anything at an ACCELERATED rate when compared to ordinary gameplay. I would even argue that a real player, minute per minute, could earn money at a greater RATE than EVEPlayer, because bots aren’t perfect and generally can’t recognize things as well as a human.

What he does isn’t specifically forbidden by the rules everyone is yammering about. And don’t try to tell me I’m arguing semantics…that’s what rules ARE. If CCP wanted, they could have different language there (for example, read WoW’s EULA) but they don’t.

So, where’s the moral high ground now?